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But yet all 4,000 of them still work for the largest surveillance corporation that has ever existed. At least now they think they have the moral high ground.

by ve55 8y ago

citilife 8y ago
They track us in real-time down to a meter, predict when and where we will travel, know who we interact with, know our DNA[1], know what food we like, when we are sick, what our political leanings are, can predict what our children will like / dislike and probably can predict when we'll die... If any of that isn't completely true yet, it will be. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrifying-but-not-for-the-reasons-the-fda-thinks/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrif...
- tehsauce 8y ago
  That's true and it's terrible. But they are not building actual weapons that kill people. That's worth something.
  - maxxxxx 8y ago
    They are building the infrastructure for the people who want to use weapons.
  - sodosopa 8y ago
    Being in China and calling Xi Jinping Winnie the Pooh over gmail would be a good test of this, no?
archgoon 8y ago
It occurs to me that attacking people who are probably on your side, and are in a position to influence Google's policies, is probably not the most effective way of enacting change. Unless your real argument is "Everyone's evil so don't bother trying".
DannyBee 8y ago
Ah, the ole "sitting on the sidelines is helpful" argument. It's morally defensible for sure, and neutral, but pretending it is actually helpful is wrong. It doesn't help in any meaningful way to change things (in any direction) if you sit on the sidelines. Ironically, people who are the ones who always seem to think the have the moral high ground. Of course that doesn't mean you have to join google to make a difference, but pretending that you have to not be working at Google to be helping change things is just silly nonsense.
- lallysingh 8y ago
  No it's different. It's closer to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cooperation_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cooperation_movement It has an effect, you just need to have a large mass of people to make it work.
  - DannyBee 8y ago
    I agree you can have an active non-cooperation movement. That does not appear to be suggested here. It's the difference between "i won't participate in patenting software" vs "i'm actively avoiding any companies or software that file patents" The former i see a lot, and it does not help in any meaningful way, in part because their participation is not required. It doesn't help, it's just something people do to pretend they are helping without having to do anything real. The latter would be something useful, though it does take large groups. Not working for google "as a way of helping" is clearly the former. Google doesn't need their help, they will do no good by leaving. They have plenty of other jobs, so it's not hard either. They likely can do more good by staying and agitating than by leaving and being ignored. Additionally, the argument that they must leave google to have an impact is also clearly silly.
- bogomipz 8y ago
  >"Ah, the ole "sitting on the sidelines is helpful" argument." That's not even the OPs argument, nor is it some "ole" argument. You have both put words in their mouth and framed it as some classic well-known fallacy of which it is not. The OP is making the distinction between "voting with your feet" which takes real commitment and has immediate effects versus "signing a letter"[1] which involves nothing more than a few seconds of your time without having to leave your desk. If Google has trouble attracting talent due to matters of conscience it directly impacts its abilities to build new services as well as improve existing service in order to increase revenue. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/technology/google-letter-ceo-pentagon-project.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/technology/google-letter-...
JarlUlvi 8y ago
Google is like Facebook A morass of compromised individuals, claiming the moral highground while attacking freedom of speech, whilst spying on our every move, and selling our data to the highest bidder/advendor. All of this, with, or without your permission.

But yet all 4,000 of them still work for the largest surveillance corporation that has ever existed. At least now they think they have the moral high ground.

by ve55 8y ago

But yet all 4,000 of them still work for the largest surveillance corporation that has ever existed. At least now they think they have the moral high ground.

citilife 8y ago

They track us in real-time down to a meter, predict when and where we will travel, know who we interact with, know our DNA[1], know what food we like, when we are sick, what our political leanings are, can predict what our children will like / dislike and probably can predict when we'll die... If any of that isn't completely true yet, it will be. [1] https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrifying-but-not-for-the-reasons-the-fda-thinks/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/23andme-is-terrif...

tehsauce 8y ago
That's true and it's terrible. But they are not building actual weapons that kill people. That's worth something.
- maxxxxx 8y ago
  They are building the infrastructure for the people who want to use weapons.
- sodosopa 8y ago
  Being in China and calling Xi Jinping Winnie the Pooh over gmail would be a good test of this, no?

archgoon 8y ago

It occurs to me that attacking people who are probably on your side, and are in a position to influence Google's policies, is probably not the most effective way of enacting change. Unless your real argument is "Everyone's evil so don't bother trying".

DannyBee 8y ago

Ah, the ole "sitting on the sidelines is helpful" argument. It's morally defensible for sure, and neutral, but pretending it is actually helpful is wrong. It doesn't help in any meaningful way to change things (in any direction) if you sit on the sidelines. Ironically, people who are the ones who always seem to think the have the moral high ground. Of course that doesn't mean you have to join google to make a difference, but pretending that you have to not be working at Google to be helping change things is just silly nonsense.

lallysingh 8y ago
No it's different. It's closer to this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cooperation_movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-cooperation_movement It has an effect, you just need to have a large mass of people to make it work.
- DannyBee 8y ago
  I agree you can have an active non-cooperation movement. That does not appear to be suggested here. It's the difference between "i won't participate in patenting software" vs "i'm actively avoiding any companies or software that file patents" The former i see a lot, and it does not help in any meaningful way, in part because their participation is not required. It doesn't help, it's just something people do to pretend they are helping without having to do anything real. The latter would be something useful, though it does take large groups. Not working for google "as a way of helping" is clearly the former. Google doesn't need their help, they will do no good by leaving. They have plenty of other jobs, so it's not hard either. They likely can do more good by staying and agitating than by leaving and being ignored. Additionally, the argument that they must leave google to have an impact is also clearly silly.
bogomipz 8y ago
>"Ah, the ole "sitting on the sidelines is helpful" argument." That's not even the OPs argument, nor is it some "ole" argument. You have both put words in their mouth and framed it as some classic well-known fallacy of which it is not. The OP is making the distinction between "voting with your feet" which takes real commitment and has immediate effects versus "signing a letter"[1] which involves nothing more than a few seconds of your time without having to leave your desk. If Google has trouble attracting talent due to matters of conscience it directly impacts its abilities to build new services as well as improve existing service in order to increase revenue. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/technology/google-letter-ceo-pentagon-project.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/04/technology/google-letter-...

JarlUlvi 8y ago

Google is like Facebook A morass of compromised individuals, claiming the moral highground while attacking freedom of speech, whilst spying on our every move, and selling our data to the highest bidder/advendor. All of this, with, or without your permission.