5 ms·

"Pottery jugs from between the eighth and second centuries B.C. bear administrative stamps that changed with the political situation. Unbeknown to the people fi

"Pottery jugs from between the eighth and second centuries B.C. bear administrative stamps that changed with the political situation. Unbeknown to the people firing these jugs, the act of heating locked information about the Earth's geomagnetic field into minerals present in the clay. Because the stamps provide precise information about when the pots were fired, the study allows a detailed look at geomagnetic changes over 600 years." https://www.livescience.com/57868-earth-magnetic-field-spike-ancient-times.html https://www.livescience.com/57868-earth-magnetic-field-spike...

ryanmercer 8y ago
Double pottery awesomeness today between that and this post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18869653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18869653
medius 8y ago
This is one of the most amazing things about humans to me. I marvel at how it's possible to get so much information about our universe by observing so little. Astronomy is another field that I'm really impressed with. It's possible to infer things about galaxies, stars, planets, etc. just buy observing some light coming from them to our little blue planet. Absolutely crazy. How many such techniques we haven't even discovered or technology is not there to observe such things? I really enjoyed reading Our Mathematical Universe by Max Tegmark that explores such things.
- weberc2 8y ago
  Regarding astronomy, the more amazing things are what we've been able to predict by mathematical inference before we had the technology to validate the predictions.
  - girzel 8y ago
    > what we've been able to predict by mathematical inference Or purely mathematical intuition.
  - signa11 8y ago
    on similar lines, imho, mendleev’s periodic table is also quite amazing. it is now close to 150 years old !!! from a random page on the web ‘’’ Mendeleev realized that the physical and chemical properties of elements were related to their atomic mass in a 'periodic' way, and arranged them so that groups of elements with similar properties fell into vertical columns in his table. Gaps and predictions Sometimes this method of arranging elements meant there were gaps in his horizontal rows or 'periods'. But instead of seeing this as a problem, Mendeleev thought it simply meant that the elements which belonged in the gaps had not yet been discovered. He was also able to work out the atomic mass of the missing elements, and so predict their properties. And when they were discovered, Mendeleev turned out to be right. For example, he predicted the properties of an undiscovered element that should fit below aluminum in his table. When this element, called gallium, was discovered in 1875 its properties were found to be close to Mendeleev's predictions. Two other predicted elements were later discovered, lending further credit to Mendeleev's table. ‘’’
- fossuser 8y ago
  I also really liked Our Mathematical Universe. You’d probably like this short story which is about exactly what you’re describing: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5wMcKNAwB6X4mp9og/that-alien-message https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5wMcKNAwB6X4mp9og/that-alien...
- lubujackson 8y ago
  I always love reading the crazy new techniques for extracting text from rotten old paper and papyrus. I distinctly remember reading a few months back an article about someone detecting trace chemicals from an old pocket bible or something, and deduced the owner had liver disease or something equally insane. wish I could find that article!
  - klenwell 8y ago
    I was just about to post the link to this New Yorker article in response to GP's question. I believe this is the one you're referring to: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/26/do-proteins-hold-the-key-to-the-past https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/26/do-proteins-ho... Under the right conditions, proteins can survive for millions of years. In recent years, proteomic studies of art works and archeological remains have yielded biological information of startling clarity, revealing gossamer-thin layers of fish glue on seventeenth-century religious sculptures and identifying children’s milk teeth from pits of previously unrecognizable Neolithic bones.
    - lubujackson 8y ago
      Yes! Thank you, it was somehow impossible to Google this.
  - medius 8y ago
    Sherlock Holmes would be envious of such abilities.
samstave 8y ago
Are these more accurate than carbon dating? Meaning - if we knew definitively that a pot was baked on a particular date - then use that as the baseline for checking another object, can we build a magnetic timeline and use it to date other things? Like bones?
- nonbel 8y ago
  It sounds like they calibrated the magnetic field data to written history (ie, the bible and other religious texts). Carbon dating doesn't work for these years because there is a plateau in the reference curve. [1] The earth must have had a weaker magnetic field (correlates with a low in sunspot activity), or there were lots of solar flares, or a supernova, near the beginning to create more c14 in the atmosphere than usual. Alternatively, the ocean "released" a bunch of old carbon to dilute the atmospheric c14 near the end of the period, thus making those years look older.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_reservoir_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_reservoir_effect
- thangalin 8y ago
  Magnetostratigraphy is used to cross-check ages of bones. Similar to how pottery records the Earth's magnetic field in clay, layers of lava containing ferromagnetic minerals (such as magnetite) can provide chronological orders. This dating methodology is called archaeomagnetic dating. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281738965_An_introduction_to_archaeomagnetic_dating https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281738965_An_introd...
  - samstave 8y ago
    THank you - thats exactly what I was interested in.
nonbel 8y ago
>"Pottery jugs from between the eighth and second centuries B.C. bear administrative stam ... the stamps provide precise information about when the pots were fired" How do they know the dates are correct? Carbon dating doesn't work for those years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau
- spinach 8y ago
  Because of the stamps - they can relate them to texts to figure out when those administrations were in power.
  - nonbel 8y ago
    Right, but since when are ancient texts reliable sources for historical dates?
    - ajkjk 8y ago
      They're as reliable as they are, and knowing how much that is is in the purview of an entire academic discipline.
    - hannasanarion 8y ago
      ... because they wrote down the dates? Calendars are not a recent invention. People have been dating texts for as long as there have been texts. Especially texts related to trade and accounting. If the pot says "made in the 4th year of king such-and-such", all you have to do is find out when that king took office, which is probably on a monument somewhere, if not in dozens of other texts, since a new administration is a pretty big deal that lots of people would write about.
      - nonbel 8y ago
        Different civilizations had different calendars at different times, the calendar would often restart with each new king, some kings would be erased from history because they lost a war, etc. I doubt it is as easy as you say.

ryanmercer 8y ago

Double pottery awesomeness today between that and this post https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18869653 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18869653

medius 8y ago

This is one of the most amazing things about humans to me. I marvel at how it's possible to get so much information about our universe by observing so little. Astronomy is another field that I'm really impressed with. It's possible to infer things about galaxies, stars, planets, etc. just buy observing some light coming from them to our little blue planet. Absolutely crazy. How many such techniques we haven't even discovered or technology is not there to observe such things? I really enjoyed reading Our Mathematical Universe by Max Tegmark that explores such things.

weberc2 8y ago
Regarding astronomy, the more amazing things are what we've been able to predict by mathematical inference before we had the technology to validate the predictions.
- girzel 8y ago
  > what we've been able to predict by mathematical inference Or purely mathematical intuition.
- signa11 8y ago
  on similar lines, imho, mendleev’s periodic table is also quite amazing. it is now close to 150 years old !!! from a random page on the web ‘’’ Mendeleev realized that the physical and chemical properties of elements were related to their atomic mass in a 'periodic' way, and arranged them so that groups of elements with similar properties fell into vertical columns in his table. Gaps and predictions Sometimes this method of arranging elements meant there were gaps in his horizontal rows or 'periods'. But instead of seeing this as a problem, Mendeleev thought it simply meant that the elements which belonged in the gaps had not yet been discovered. He was also able to work out the atomic mass of the missing elements, and so predict their properties. And when they were discovered, Mendeleev turned out to be right. For example, he predicted the properties of an undiscovered element that should fit below aluminum in his table. When this element, called gallium, was discovered in 1875 its properties were found to be close to Mendeleev's predictions. Two other predicted elements were later discovered, lending further credit to Mendeleev's table. ‘’’
fossuser 8y ago
I also really liked Our Mathematical Universe. You’d probably like this short story which is about exactly what you’re describing: https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5wMcKNAwB6X4mp9og/that-alien-message https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/5wMcKNAwB6X4mp9og/that-alien...
lubujackson 8y ago
I always love reading the crazy new techniques for extracting text from rotten old paper and papyrus. I distinctly remember reading a few months back an article about someone detecting trace chemicals from an old pocket bible or something, and deduced the owner had liver disease or something equally insane. wish I could find that article!
- klenwell 8y ago
  I was just about to post the link to this New Yorker article in response to GP's question. I believe this is the one you're referring to: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/26/do-proteins-hold-the-key-to-the-past https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/26/do-proteins-ho... Under the right conditions, proteins can survive for millions of years. In recent years, proteomic studies of art works and archeological remains have yielded biological information of startling clarity, revealing gossamer-thin layers of fish glue on seventeenth-century religious sculptures and identifying children’s milk teeth from pits of previously unrecognizable Neolithic bones.
  - lubujackson 8y ago
    Yes! Thank you, it was somehow impossible to Google this.
- medius 8y ago
  Sherlock Holmes would be envious of such abilities.

samstave 8y ago

Are these more accurate than carbon dating? Meaning - if we knew definitively that a pot was baked on a particular date - then use that as the baseline for checking another object, can we build a magnetic timeline and use it to date other things? Like bones?

nonbel 8y ago
It sounds like they calibrated the magnetic field data to written history (ie, the bible and other religious texts). Carbon dating doesn't work for these years because there is a plateau in the reference curve. [1] The earth must have had a weaker magnetic field (correlates with a low in sunspot activity), or there were lots of solar flares, or a supernova, near the beginning to create more c14 in the atmosphere than usual. Alternatively, the ocean "released" a bunch of old carbon to dilute the atmospheric c14 near the end of the period, thus making those years look older.[2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_reservoir_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_reservoir_effect
thangalin 8y ago
Magnetostratigraphy is used to cross-check ages of bones. Similar to how pottery records the Earth's magnetic field in clay, layers of lava containing ferromagnetic minerals (such as magnetite) can provide chronological orders. This dating methodology is called archaeomagnetic dating. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281738965_An_introduction_to_archaeomagnetic_dating https://www.researchgate.net/publication/281738965_An_introd...
- samstave 8y ago
  THank you - thats exactly what I was interested in.

nonbel 8y ago

>"Pottery jugs from between the eighth and second centuries B.C. bear administrative stam ... the stamps provide precise information about when the pots were fired" How do they know the dates are correct? Carbon dating doesn't work for those years: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_plateau

spinach 8y ago
Because of the stamps - they can relate them to texts to figure out when those administrations were in power.
- nonbel 8y ago
  Right, but since when are ancient texts reliable sources for historical dates?
  - ajkjk 8y ago
    They're as reliable as they are, and knowing how much that is is in the purview of an entire academic discipline.
  - hannasanarion 8y ago
    ... because they wrote down the dates? Calendars are not a recent invention. People have been dating texts for as long as there have been texts. Especially texts related to trade and accounting. If the pot says "made in the 4th year of king such-and-such", all you have to do is find out when that king took office, which is probably on a monument somewhere, if not in dozens of other texts, since a new administration is a pretty big deal that lots of people would write about.
    - nonbel 8y ago
      Different civilizations had different calendars at different times, the calendar would often restart with each new king, some kings would be erased from history because they lost a war, etc. I doubt it is as easy as you say.