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Personally, I totally agree with you. Aside from the political power play that made systemd "popular" (/adopted), it also gained traction because of a lack of s

Personally, I totally agree with you. Aside from the political power play that made systemd "popular" (/adopted), it also gained traction because of a lack of skill among the ever growing user base of Linux. Quite a few of the "problems" that systemd claimed to solve where solvable in SysV init, but it required skill/experience. A bit like claiming to be a car mechanic and bashing an old car because you can't tune the ignition timing, because it doesn't have a board computer doing it for you and you don't have the skill/understanding to do it yourself. In the past, you often were required to have at least some skill/experience to get Linux to work for you. Today, it's more about choosing the right tools to use Linux with a just a bare minimum of skill/experience. An understandable development for sure, but it also opened the door for software of questionable quality, which has at least part of its popularity to thank to the ignorance of a significant part of the user base.

tyu1000 8y ago
How did 'skilled' programmers recover when a daemon crashed in Sys5 init-based systems? The init script ends after startup so you are stuck with a third party monitoring service that will often clash with startup functions making controlling system state really hard. systemd was worth it for that feature alone. Linux userspace was a bunch of crufty, unmaintained tools from xinetd to logind (literally had no maintainer until system came along) to update-rc.d that additionally were not taking advantage of a lot of new kernel features like cgroups. systemd has done a great job moving the base layer of linux userspace forward. The old world of cobbling together bash, sed and shell metacharacters was always hacky, insecure and broken as shit and we are way better off now with systemd.
- elmo2you 8y ago
  Spoken like a true believer. Badly written or maintained scripts were just that, and not the fault of the technology. Same goes for not incorporating new kernel features. Writing auto-recovering SysV init scripts was (and still is) possible. I will not dispute that many scripts were often ignorantly hacked together copies of already existing (bad) examples. While I do use systemd myself, I (so far) have not seen anything revolutionary in systemd that is impossible without it. It's just another technology with positive and negative aspects. For something as crucial as an init system, I believe that the code quality might be questionable at best. Same goes for some of the design choices and the feature creep it tends to have.
- insertcredit 8y ago
  One would ask himself how the BSDs manage to do it (no systemd), Android (no systemd), ChromeOS (no systemd), Solaris/Illumos (no systemd) ... Your arguments hold no merit whatsoever. The fact is that all the problems you describe have been solved, properly, multiple times _before_ systemd entered the picture. The reasons behind systemd mass adoption were political and Redhat exerted a lot of pressure at the time and in many ways, still do.
  - astine 8y ago
    You could use the same argument to disparage any technological innovation. Computers? Our ancestors did just fine without them and so do many people across the world to this day. But more ridiculous than that is your listing of Solaris and Android as systems without systemd. Solaris uses SMF which was one of the inspirations for systemd. SMF is much closer in spirit to systemd than it is to sysvinit or rc. The particular merits of systemd or bash scripts aside, using SMF as an argument for the later is just ignorant. Furthermore, even though Android doesn't use systemd, software written for Android is written in such a way that it doesn't interact with the init system at all. The typical user/admin has no access to the init system. I have no specific knowledge of ChromeOS but I suspect it is much like Android in this regard. The only example that really works for you are the BSDs.
    - insertcredit 8y ago
      "Closer in spirit" does not mean anything tangible in the real world, you are merely playing with words. Solaris SMF is vastly simpler than systemd and has a much narrower scope and focus. I don't recall mentioning bash scripts in the post you replied to, so you are simply being disingenuous by presenting a false dichotomy.
      - astine 8y ago
        I find it really hard to believe that you were unable to understand what I meant. The complexity of Sysvinit is orders of magnitude less than that of systemd. This whole thread is a discussion of the relative complexity between sysvinit and systemd. Sysvinit uses shell scripts to implement much of the logic around starting and stopping services. Any discussion of sysvinit and systemd is going to involve bash. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
- rleigh 8y ago
  daemontools, or respawn from inittab. There are a number of perfectly reasonable possibilities, of which these are just two. But more generally, you didn't restart daemons if they crashed. Firstly, because they used to be written sufficiently well that they never crashed, because competent people wrote them. Secondly, because continually respawning and crashing does no one any good.
  - astine 8y ago
    Firstly, because they used to be written sufficiently well that they never crashed, because competent people wrote them. If your deployment strategy depends on never having to run substandard software then you've already lost. Also, it just isn't true that older software was necessarily more reliable. It's just that when you found yourself maintaining poorly written software you just dealt with it through whatever means you had available. I remember having to use an IBM HSM implementation on AIX, something you would expect to just work because it was IBM software written for their own system on their own hardware, but in practice the filesystem kept invisibly crashing resulting in apparently corrupt files and I'd have to restart it every few minutes.
    - rleigh 8y ago
      The thing is, most Linux distributions ran services this way for well over two decades. The world did not end, and the number of problems we experienced in reality were negligible. If we wanted automatic service restart on failure, then there were facilities for doing so should we chose to avail ourselves of them. If something is crashing and requires a restart, then doing it automatically is at best papering over a problem the admin should be investigating. It's a mitigation, rather than a solution, and might well cause more problems than it solves. systemd isn't bringing anything particularly new or noteworthy to the table here.
      - astine 8y ago
        The thing is, most Linux distributions ran services this way for well over two decades. So? That doesn't mean it was the best way to do things. Humanity existed for thousands of years without vaccines and still managed but that doesn't mean that disease wasn't a thing. Misbehaving services have always been a thing and they've always been a problem. I know because I've dealt with them. If you feel that other methods for dealing with misbehaving services are better, fair enough, but don't appeal to a mythical golden age where everybody wrote software without bugs.
- nwmcsween 8y ago
  You're assuming bash is a requirement which is short sighted, #!/bin/foo can be anything and isn't limited to bash
- gerbilly 8y ago
  > How did 'skilled' programmers recover when a daemon crashed in Sys5 init-based systems? Maybe the daemons didn't crash so often as now? I never understood this new approach, which consists of writing a server process in a half assed way so that it crashes frequently, then solving that by putting a restarter service in front of it, done!
insertcredit 8y ago
Fully agreed. There has been a race to the bottom regarding technical competence by various entities for various reasons. To me it seemed at the time that Redhat used dark-pattern-like behavior in order to push systemd, exploiting people's hopes regarding a more unified Linux ecosystem. There is nothing wrong with making things easier to use. The problems begin when the people you put in charge of that effort (Poettering and co) are extremely short-sighted, do not properly understand what came before and thus make mistakes that could have easily been avoided, are average-at-best engineers with a personal history of bad projects (pulseaudio, avahi), are bad communicators and take valid critique poorly. When I was still at Google, colleagues at Android and ChromeOS teams laughed at the mere mention of systemd. The general consensus in the teams I mostly interacted with was that systemd resembled a hidden iceberg with enormous problems, the magnitude of which would slowly become apparent. Which is one of the reasons Google has mostly kept away from it.

tyu1000 8y ago

How did 'skilled' programmers recover when a daemon crashed in Sys5 init-based systems? The init script ends after startup so you are stuck with a third party monitoring service that will often clash with startup functions making controlling system state really hard. systemd was worth it for that feature alone. Linux userspace was a bunch of crufty, unmaintained tools from xinetd to logind (literally had no maintainer until system came along) to update-rc.d that additionally were not taking advantage of a lot of new kernel features like cgroups. systemd has done a great job moving the base layer of linux userspace forward. The old world of cobbling together bash, sed and shell metacharacters was always hacky, insecure and broken as shit and we are way better off now with systemd.

elmo2you 8y ago
Spoken like a true believer. Badly written or maintained scripts were just that, and not the fault of the technology. Same goes for not incorporating new kernel features. Writing auto-recovering SysV init scripts was (and still is) possible. I will not dispute that many scripts were often ignorantly hacked together copies of already existing (bad) examples. While I do use systemd myself, I (so far) have not seen anything revolutionary in systemd that is impossible without it. It's just another technology with positive and negative aspects. For something as crucial as an init system, I believe that the code quality might be questionable at best. Same goes for some of the design choices and the feature creep it tends to have.
insertcredit 8y ago
One would ask himself how the BSDs manage to do it (no systemd), Android (no systemd), ChromeOS (no systemd), Solaris/Illumos (no systemd) ... Your arguments hold no merit whatsoever. The fact is that all the problems you describe have been solved, properly, multiple times _before_ systemd entered the picture. The reasons behind systemd mass adoption were political and Redhat exerted a lot of pressure at the time and in many ways, still do.
- astine 8y ago
  You could use the same argument to disparage any technological innovation. Computers? Our ancestors did just fine without them and so do many people across the world to this day. But more ridiculous than that is your listing of Solaris and Android as systems without systemd. Solaris uses SMF which was one of the inspirations for systemd. SMF is much closer in spirit to systemd than it is to sysvinit or rc. The particular merits of systemd or bash scripts aside, using SMF as an argument for the later is just ignorant. Furthermore, even though Android doesn't use systemd, software written for Android is written in such a way that it doesn't interact with the init system at all. The typical user/admin has no access to the init system. I have no specific knowledge of ChromeOS but I suspect it is much like Android in this regard. The only example that really works for you are the BSDs.
  - insertcredit 8y ago
    "Closer in spirit" does not mean anything tangible in the real world, you are merely playing with words. Solaris SMF is vastly simpler than systemd and has a much narrower scope and focus. I don't recall mentioning bash scripts in the post you replied to, so you are simply being disingenuous by presenting a false dichotomy.
    - astine 8y ago
      I find it really hard to believe that you were unable to understand what I meant. The complexity of Sysvinit is orders of magnitude less than that of systemd. This whole thread is a discussion of the relative complexity between sysvinit and systemd. Sysvinit uses shell scripts to implement much of the logic around starting and stopping services. Any discussion of sysvinit and systemd is going to involve bash. It's disingenuous to pretend otherwise.
rleigh 8y ago
daemontools, or respawn from inittab. There are a number of perfectly reasonable possibilities, of which these are just two. But more generally, you didn't restart daemons if they crashed. Firstly, because they used to be written sufficiently well that they never crashed, because competent people wrote them. Secondly, because continually respawning and crashing does no one any good.
- astine 8y ago
  Firstly, because they used to be written sufficiently well that they never crashed, because competent people wrote them. If your deployment strategy depends on never having to run substandard software then you've already lost. Also, it just isn't true that older software was necessarily more reliable. It's just that when you found yourself maintaining poorly written software you just dealt with it through whatever means you had available. I remember having to use an IBM HSM implementation on AIX, something you would expect to just work because it was IBM software written for their own system on their own hardware, but in practice the filesystem kept invisibly crashing resulting in apparently corrupt files and I'd have to restart it every few minutes.
  - rleigh 8y ago
    The thing is, most Linux distributions ran services this way for well over two decades. The world did not end, and the number of problems we experienced in reality were negligible. If we wanted automatic service restart on failure, then there were facilities for doing so should we chose to avail ourselves of them. If something is crashing and requires a restart, then doing it automatically is at best papering over a problem the admin should be investigating. It's a mitigation, rather than a solution, and might well cause more problems than it solves. systemd isn't bringing anything particularly new or noteworthy to the table here.
    - astine 8y ago
      The thing is, most Linux distributions ran services this way for well over two decades. So? That doesn't mean it was the best way to do things. Humanity existed for thousands of years without vaccines and still managed but that doesn't mean that disease wasn't a thing. Misbehaving services have always been a thing and they've always been a problem. I know because I've dealt with them. If you feel that other methods for dealing with misbehaving services are better, fair enough, but don't appeal to a mythical golden age where everybody wrote software without bugs.
nwmcsween 8y ago
You're assuming bash is a requirement which is short sighted, #!/bin/foo can be anything and isn't limited to bash
gerbilly 8y ago
> How did 'skilled' programmers recover when a daemon crashed in Sys5 init-based systems? Maybe the daemons didn't crash so often as now? I never understood this new approach, which consists of writing a server process in a half assed way so that it crashes frequently, then solving that by putting a restarter service in front of it, done!

insertcredit 8y ago

Fully agreed. There has been a race to the bottom regarding technical competence by various entities for various reasons. To me it seemed at the time that Redhat used dark-pattern-like behavior in order to push systemd, exploiting people's hopes regarding a more unified Linux ecosystem. There is nothing wrong with making things easier to use. The problems begin when the people you put in charge of that effort (Poettering and co) are extremely short-sighted, do not properly understand what came before and thus make mistakes that could have easily been avoided, are average-at-best engineers with a personal history of bad projects (pulseaudio, avahi), are bad communicators and take valid critique poorly. When I was still at Google, colleagues at Android and ChromeOS teams laughed at the mere mention of systemd. The general consensus in the teams I mostly interacted with was that systemd resembled a hidden iceberg with enormous problems, the magnitude of which would slowly become apparent. Which is one of the reasons Google has mostly kept away from it.