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I think this is the right way of thinking (ie a materialist view, which looks at what an economic system means in real resources), but it's obviously more compl
by CamTin 8y ago
I think this is the right way of thinking (ie a materialist view, which looks at what an economic system means in real resources), but it's obviously more complicated than a binary choice between "rich people spending all their money on non-productive toys" and "rich people investing all their money into socially useful enterprises".
The invested (saved, not consumed) resources that rich people have won't necessarily go to socially useful enterprises. Instead, they'll probably be invested in things whose main purpose is to create more capital for the capitalist class to invest, not to decrease human suffering. The two things have historically been correlated, but there's no guarantee that this will last forever, and good reason to think that it won't.
At some point (and maybe we've already reached it) we will have enough capital for everyone in the world to live a maximally happy life. Arguably, any investment beyond that point (beyond what is necessary to maintain that capital sock, and perhaps grow it at the same rate as population growth) is malinvestment, since if our goal is to maximize human happiness, additional capital is useless beyond that point, so we should use those resources to do something else.
The obvious problem with this line of thought is determining when we've got "enough" capital, and therefore when we can stop playing capitalism and whack up the gains. Obviously 1918 Russia was the wrong time and place to do that, but hindsight is 20/20.
Another issue is that a lot of our capital stock is not in the form of physical stuff, but institutions, contracts, and relationships that a socialist revolution would actually destroy. The reason Amazon is worth so much money is not because of all the physical stuff it owns, but because of the structure, contracts, and relationships within the company itself allow that physical stuff to be more productive than other physical stuff employed by other firms, and indeed even by the laws that allow firms to exist at all. Any "revolution" will obviously severely disrupt a lot of these relationships, from employer-employee relationships, to government contracts, IP laws, etc. Indeed, that's the whole point of a socialist revolution, but similar things on a smaller scale are faced with almost any progressive policy proposal: changing the social contract to be more beneficial to workers and redistribute society's wealth can actually reduce the amount of wealth in the society. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, since less wealth distributed more evenly will probably be a net positive for the majority of people, but we can't pretend this problem doesn't exist. It's a conundrum that I rarely see the Left wrestle with, but I think we need to.
- benj111 8y agoWell said. Regarding wealth redistribution reducing wealth in society. Would you say that that is a short term blip, that may or may not lead to increased wealth in the future? A company restructuring can reduce productivity before increasing it. Also you presuppose revolution, that isn't necessarily required. Post war Europe went quite far along that road democratically and peacefully, and seemingly in the short term successfully (I suppose the inverse of the scenario in my prior paragraph)
- CamTin 8y agoI'm not sure a private-sector restructuring is exactly the right frame for left policy change, since the whole point of these changes is to refocus ourselves away from the tyranny of constantly optimizing for productivity instead of happiness. Also, even in a successful corporate restructuring, there is pain all around (layoffs and capital losses) before there is any gain to anyone. This is the hallmark of disastrously unsuccessful left policies like the Cultural Revolution, where tons of people suffered but there was no real gain to anyone except perhaps a small minority of Party members for decades. In my view, a successful left policy change should make a minority "suffer", while almost everyone else benefits or, even better, make everybody better off with outsized gains to the worst off. I'm not advocating a revolution, and meant to bring it up as one limit of left policy change. This exact problem (radical changes to relationships during a revolution destroying lots of wealth) is why I think a Russian-style revolution is a bad idea, unless the revolutionaries are making the conscious choice to create a post-revolution society that is drastically poorer than the pre-revolution one. I don't think most people (except extreme radicals) would support this goal. Any socialist revolution would therefore have to downplay or ignore this fact in order to succeed, which is precisely what happened in places like Russia, China, and Cuba in the 20th century. (To be fair, the Russians were the first to try this, so they didn't have anyone else to look at and learn this lesson.) That doesn't mean incrementalist left policies don't have to grapple with the problem though. Single-payer healthcare, for example, would probably reduce the amount of wealth in society, since most of the value in private healthcare firms comes from the current structure of the healthcare market. A leftist should be OK with this and support single-payer anyway because most people will gain.