3 ms·

But a hyena is a carnivore. Humans are not. A hyena cannot contemplate the finality of death and probably doesn't understand much about the pain it's causing, i

by uhtred 8y ago

But a hyena is a carnivore. Humans are not. A hyena cannot contemplate the finality of death and probably doesn't understand much about the pain it's causing, it's just eating a meal. Humans do understand all those things and on top of that humans do not need to eat meat and are very possibly healthier without it, yet we continue to do so. Also, nearly all meat consumed by humans comes from factory farms which deprive the victims of even at least a natural life up to the point of death. It's a life of emotional and physical torture from birth. What makes you think any animals raised for meat get to live a long life before being killed? Most won't make it to 1 year... After all, who would eat old tough meat? Given that most people in the west can easily get to a fully stocked grocery store with more variety of legumes, grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds not to mention tofu, tempeh, seitan, cashew cheese, ready made vegan goods like beyond burgers, pizzas, vegan egg, vegan sausage... To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals.

pmarreck 8y ago
https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ The highest rated egg producers have "truly pastured" chickens... which is probably as close as you can get to giving them a "natural life" while confining them. Note that there is a mutually-beneficial trade going on here- They do give up their eggs (and eventually themselves), and are (broadly) confined, but while alive they can eat as much as they want and they are secure from predation. I am extremely impressed by Impossible burgers (Beyond is OK, but Impossible... wow.) I haven't tried vegan eggs but if they don't get the yolk almost exactly right I might not be able to switch, can you provide a link? Also, what's your opinion on lab-grown muscle meat? Is it all about ethics for you? > To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. I believe at least the "eggs and milk" can be done in humane ways. Again, we provide an environment for them with unlimited food and minimized risk of predation. In the wild, food would be scarce and predation risk would be ever-present. As far as eating animals... I consider it a near-necessary evil for now that will eventually go away. (I know you're arguing that it isn't necessary, and you're probably right... I'm talking about convincing EVERYONE of this RIGHT NOW tho) > We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals. I have an idea you might like. What if you took a few friends to do a field trip to the source of the meats/eggs/cheese they eat (after doing the homework to investigate where these are, of course)? Judgment-free. And also to observe treatment and (if you can stomach it, and if they permit it, which they may not) the slaughtering part. I'd go on that trip. Observed truth is the best argument...
- uhtred 8y ago
  so what happens to the male chicks that are born in the egg industry? They get killed, by gassing, suffocation or being thrown into a grinder. Why does a dairy cow produce milk? because she has a baby. Where does that baby go after birth? I mean, the milk is for the humans, not the baby cow, right? Baby cow gets taken from mother causing intense emotional pain for both, and if male, sold into incredibly cruel veal industry or beef industry or just killed. If female she goes through the same lifelong torture of repeated rape, then having her baby stolen, then being milked raw by machines, in lonely terror, as her mother, for around 4 years, before her poor body is spent and she is shot as humans have no use for her. Dairy cows have possibly an even crueler fate than beef cows. How is any of this humane? Why would I ever go to see any of this happening? There is so much written and video evidence available online, I don't need to go and see it happening myself. Think about how much meat, cheese and eggs people in America alone throw down their throats every day. There is no way this demand could ever be met by anything other than the most cruel and heartless industrial scale production methods where animals are no more than a commodity to be exploited.
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    I’m listening. Couple of comments. The fact that cows must produce babies in order to produce milk was somehow lost on me. That’s unfortunate. I had assumed it was injected hormones that faked a pregnancy. But you did send me on a cow rabbit-hole. > intense emotional pain for both I did not find objective evidence that this is common, nor do I think it is easy to evaluate whether a cow is experiencing “intense emotional pain.” > lonely terror Yes, the worst milk producers do that. I buy organic and that means the cow absolutely must be pastured. > video evidence available online Yes, of the worst possible conditions, taken at the most offensive and least ethical milk producers, and posted to blogs with a clear vegan bias to rationalize. Surely. :P > no way this demand could ever be met (unless ethics is sacrificed) I would like to see evidence for this assertion
    - uhtred 8y ago
      I'm not going to spend my day finding evidence to convince you. You seem to be the sort of person that demands unreasonable amounts of evidence (clearly no one has studied every dairy cow to see if the suffer when their baby is taken away, or monitored every factory farm to see how the animals are treated. In fact with USA ag gag laws this is very hard anyway - big agriculture money buys the law makers) knowing that you won't then need to consider that your food choices support cruelty. If you are OK with the knowledge that sentient intelligent beings (where's the evidence that cows are intelligent, right?!) are treated as nothing more than a commodity, or slave, and if you can't understand (without evidence!) that taking a baby from an animal would cause it to suffer, then good luck to you, and enjoy your milk. I find it sad when common sense and compassion lose to statistics and numbers. (for the record, a simple google search seemed to return quite a few reports on psychological studies done on farm animals - if you are genuinely interested/concerned, and I doubt you are, then give a whirl). Ciao.

by uhtred 8y ago

pmarreck 8y ago

https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ The highest rated egg producers have "truly pastured" chickens... which is probably as close as you can get to giving them a "natural life" while confining them. Note that there is a mutually-beneficial trade going on here- They do give up their eggs (and eventually themselves), and are (broadly) confined, but while alive they can eat as much as they want and they are secure from predation. I am extremely impressed by Impossible burgers (Beyond is OK, but Impossible... wow.) I haven't tried vegan eggs but if they don't get the yolk almost exactly right I might not be able to switch, can you provide a link? Also, what's your opinion on lab-grown muscle meat? Is it all about ethics for you? > To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. I believe at least the "eggs and milk" can be done in humane ways. Again, we provide an environment for them with unlimited food and minimized risk of predation. In the wild, food would be scarce and predation risk would be ever-present. As far as eating animals... I consider it a near-necessary evil for now that will eventually go away. (I know you're arguing that it isn't necessary, and you're probably right... I'm talking about convincing EVERYONE of this RIGHT NOW tho) > We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals. I have an idea you might like. What if you took a few friends to do a field trip to the source of the meats/eggs/cheese they eat (after doing the homework to investigate where these are, of course)? Judgment-free. And also to observe treatment and (if you can stomach it, and if they permit it, which they may not) the slaughtering part. I'd go on that trip. Observed truth is the best argument...

uhtred 8y ago
so what happens to the male chicks that are born in the egg industry? They get killed, by gassing, suffocation or being thrown into a grinder. Why does a dairy cow produce milk? because she has a baby. Where does that baby go after birth? I mean, the milk is for the humans, not the baby cow, right? Baby cow gets taken from mother causing intense emotional pain for both, and if male, sold into incredibly cruel veal industry or beef industry or just killed. If female she goes through the same lifelong torture of repeated rape, then having her baby stolen, then being milked raw by machines, in lonely terror, as her mother, for around 4 years, before her poor body is spent and she is shot as humans have no use for her. Dairy cows have possibly an even crueler fate than beef cows. How is any of this humane? Why would I ever go to see any of this happening? There is so much written and video evidence available online, I don't need to go and see it happening myself. Think about how much meat, cheese and eggs people in America alone throw down their throats every day. There is no way this demand could ever be met by anything other than the most cruel and heartless industrial scale production methods where animals are no more than a commodity to be exploited.
- pmarreck 8y ago
  I’m listening. Couple of comments. The fact that cows must produce babies in order to produce milk was somehow lost on me. That’s unfortunate. I had assumed it was injected hormones that faked a pregnancy. But you did send me on a cow rabbit-hole. > intense emotional pain for both I did not find objective evidence that this is common, nor do I think it is easy to evaluate whether a cow is experiencing “intense emotional pain.” > lonely terror Yes, the worst milk producers do that. I buy organic and that means the cow absolutely must be pastured. > video evidence available online Yes, of the worst possible conditions, taken at the most offensive and least ethical milk producers, and posted to blogs with a clear vegan bias to rationalize. Surely. :P > no way this demand could ever be met (unless ethics is sacrificed) I would like to see evidence for this assertion
  - uhtred 8y ago
    I'm not going to spend my day finding evidence to convince you. You seem to be the sort of person that demands unreasonable amounts of evidence (clearly no one has studied every dairy cow to see if the suffer when their baby is taken away, or monitored every factory farm to see how the animals are treated. In fact with USA ag gag laws this is very hard anyway - big agriculture money buys the law makers) knowing that you won't then need to consider that your food choices support cruelty. If you are OK with the knowledge that sentient intelligent beings (where's the evidence that cows are intelligent, right?!) are treated as nothing more than a commodity, or slave, and if you can't understand (without evidence!) that taking a baby from an animal would cause it to suffer, then good luck to you, and enjoy your milk. I find it sad when common sense and compassion lose to statistics and numbers. (for the record, a simple google search seemed to return quite a few reports on psychological studies done on farm animals - if you are genuinely interested/concerned, and I doubt you are, then give a whirl). Ciao.