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Every company has the same attitude in my experience, this ins't unique to Amazon. edit: For those down voting instead of just disagreeing provide a company an

Every company has the same attitude in my experience, this ins't unique to Amazon. edit: For those down voting instead of just disagreeing provide a company and their policy. All the companies I've worked at have been the same as Amazon more or less and all my friends have similar employment clauses.

Pfhreak 8y ago
Amazon reserved the right to take ownership of my project and all related IP at any time (including after leaving the company.) I was also forbidden from working with anyone outside of my org on the projects. There were no exceptions allowed. It was considerably more restrictive than any company I've worked at elsewhere.
- notyourwork 8y ago
  I'm aware of Amazon's policies. Most companies have similar clauses.
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    I disagree. My research suggested that Amazon's policies about open source and game development were stricter. (For example, I must be willing to disclose any sales data to Amazon. I must use Amazon products when possible. I must make my project available on the Amazon store if possible.) Most companies also have a process to keep copyright if you need/want to. Yes, most companies have approval processes. They might even be onerous approvals processes. Amazon expressly forbid me from participating in game jams with people who were not in my org.
    - Galanwe 8y ago
      >I disagree. My research suggested that Amazon's policies about open source and game development were stricter. Worked at microsoft for 2 years, there are the same policies. It was not contractual though. It's just that there were notes broadcasted saying that whenever you discussed with third parties, you should use microsoft tools if possible. Want to meet someone? Send a Bing Maps link, not Google Maps. Want to share a research? Send a Bing Link, not a Google search. etc. As for the confidentiality clauses, I work in finance, and the rules on IP and personal projects are the same as what you describe.
      - MRD85 8y ago
        Today I learnt that there is a Bing Maps
        rmc 8y ago
        Microsoft have been very helpful to OpenStreetMap. Since 2010 they allow the OSM community to trace from the Bing aerial imagery to add things to OSM. Roads, buildings, everything you can see with the aerial imagery. It's fantastically useful. OpenStreetMap database would be a fraction of the size if it wasn't for Microsoft granting us this. As of July 2018, they allow us to use Streetside imagery too. (Alas you can't use the actual maps, just the aerial/satelite imagery) Yahoo allowed tracing from 2007 till 2011.
      - rectang 8y ago
        Microsoft is big and the contacts I have there tell me that the open source policies vary by department.
        chrisweekly 8y ago
        Microsoft has also undergone a massive transformation over the last few years with respect to OSS.
    - notyourwork 8y ago
      Most companies being who exactly? All the people disagreeing with me clearly have not read their terms of employment.
      - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
        Maybe qualify “most companies” to “most large Silicon Valley tech companies”? I’ve never worked anywhere with any non-compete clause at all.
  - freedomben 8y ago
    The last 4 places I've been, three encouraged us to participate in FOSS. Only one was neutral, but disallowed paid side gigs (open source was ok). It's anecdata, but totally opposite of your experience.
  - kerng 8y ago
    Nope, first time ever I hear about something such restrictive. That by itself would be a reason for me to not sign an employment contract with Amazon.
    - throwaway1280 8y ago
      Yeah. Amazon loses a small but significant number of potential hires when they learn about the open source clause - often very good people, too. When I left they were actively working on trying to find a solution, as it had been a thorn in the side for years.
ipsum2 8y ago
Most big tech companies that I'm familiar with allow you to program on your free time, as long as you give them a heads up and it doesn't conflict with the company's products. E.g. working on a video game or contributing to open source.
- notyourwork 8y ago
  Please name one, they all have the same non-compete language in their job offers and they are at-will positions. It may be allowed by your manager but company policy isn't such.
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    Other companies have exemption policies, or mechanisms to get approvals. Amazon does not. Your choices were work privately on your own project or leave (or risk being fired for violating the policy.) Amazon was more aggressive (in my opinion) and much stricter than any other company I've ever worked at. Edit: I researched a lot of the other tech companies. Here's Google's documentation, for example, which outlines an exception process: https://opensource.google.com/docs/iarc/ https://opensource.google.com/docs/iarc/
    - eclipxe 8y ago
      Amazon has an exemption policy.
      - Pfhreak 8y ago
        Not to the game development policies.
  - ipsum2 8y ago
    Off the top of my head, there's company policies for employees to work on their own projects at Google, Facebook, and Github.
    - 8y ago
hedora 8y ago
California law expressly prohibits this exact policy. If you want to be able to work on open source (that is unrelated to your job, on your own equipment) on your own time, move to Silicon Valley. Even Amazon employees in CA should be exempt from this policy.
- pvg 8y ago
  What is the law you're referring to?
  - rectang 8y ago
    CA Labor Code 2870.
    - pvg 8y ago
      I don't think that offers nearly the sort ironclad protection the GP is suggesting. The broad exemptions are part of the reason AoI agreements are universal in SV.
- yongjik 8y ago
  ...As long as what you work on does not overlap with anything your employer does. ...which is a big problem if you work at Amazon or Google. (Can you think of a single software project that will not intersect any Google project? Are you sure?)
- jenscow 8y ago
  > "that is unrelated to your job" My OSS project is "software development". My company's main function is "software development".
mochomocha 8y ago
Netflix.
mcv 8y ago
I refuse any contract where my employer claims ownership of code I wrote in my own time on my own machine that has nothing to do with the work I do for the company. Very few contracts have contained such a clause, and I believe at least one removed such a clause when I requested it. These days I'm self-employed and renting myself out to large companies, and this has never been an issue. They only care about the work I do for them, not about what I do in private.
ex_amazon_sde 8y ago
I worked for Amazon and various other companies. Most of them did not have those restrictions.

Pfhreak 8y ago

Amazon reserved the right to take ownership of my project and all related IP at any time (including after leaving the company.) I was also forbidden from working with anyone outside of my org on the projects. There were no exceptions allowed. It was considerably more restrictive than any company I've worked at elsewhere.

notyourwork 8y ago
I'm aware of Amazon's policies. Most companies have similar clauses.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  I disagree. My research suggested that Amazon's policies about open source and game development were stricter. (For example, I must be willing to disclose any sales data to Amazon. I must use Amazon products when possible. I must make my project available on the Amazon store if possible.) Most companies also have a process to keep copyright if you need/want to. Yes, most companies have approval processes. They might even be onerous approvals processes. Amazon expressly forbid me from participating in game jams with people who were not in my org.
  - Galanwe 8y ago
    >I disagree. My research suggested that Amazon's policies about open source and game development were stricter. Worked at microsoft for 2 years, there are the same policies. It was not contractual though. It's just that there were notes broadcasted saying that whenever you discussed with third parties, you should use microsoft tools if possible. Want to meet someone? Send a Bing Maps link, not Google Maps. Want to share a research? Send a Bing Link, not a Google search. etc. As for the confidentiality clauses, I work in finance, and the rules on IP and personal projects are the same as what you describe.
    - MRD85 8y ago
      Today I learnt that there is a Bing Maps
      - rmc 8y ago
        Microsoft have been very helpful to OpenStreetMap. Since 2010 they allow the OSM community to trace from the Bing aerial imagery to add things to OSM. Roads, buildings, everything you can see with the aerial imagery. It's fantastically useful. OpenStreetMap database would be a fraction of the size if it wasn't for Microsoft granting us this. As of July 2018, they allow us to use Streetside imagery too. (Alas you can't use the actual maps, just the aerial/satelite imagery) Yahoo allowed tracing from 2007 till 2011.
    - rectang 8y ago
      Microsoft is big and the contacts I have there tell me that the open source policies vary by department.
      - chrisweekly 8y ago
        Microsoft has also undergone a massive transformation over the last few years with respect to OSS.
  - notyourwork 8y ago
    Most companies being who exactly? All the people disagreeing with me clearly have not read their terms of employment.
    - Doctor_Fegg 8y ago
      Maybe qualify “most companies” to “most large Silicon Valley tech companies”? I’ve never worked anywhere with any non-compete clause at all.
- freedomben 8y ago
  The last 4 places I've been, three encouraged us to participate in FOSS. Only one was neutral, but disallowed paid side gigs (open source was ok). It's anecdata, but totally opposite of your experience.
- kerng 8y ago
  Nope, first time ever I hear about something such restrictive. That by itself would be a reason for me to not sign an employment contract with Amazon.
  - throwaway1280 8y ago
    Yeah. Amazon loses a small but significant number of potential hires when they learn about the open source clause - often very good people, too. When I left they were actively working on trying to find a solution, as it had been a thorn in the side for years.

ipsum2 8y ago

Most big tech companies that I'm familiar with allow you to program on your free time, as long as you give them a heads up and it doesn't conflict with the company's products. E.g. working on a video game or contributing to open source.

notyourwork 8y ago
Please name one, they all have the same non-compete language in their job offers and they are at-will positions. It may be allowed by your manager but company policy isn't such.
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  Other companies have exemption policies, or mechanisms to get approvals. Amazon does not. Your choices were work privately on your own project or leave (or risk being fired for violating the policy.) Amazon was more aggressive (in my opinion) and much stricter than any other company I've ever worked at. Edit: I researched a lot of the other tech companies. Here's Google's documentation, for example, which outlines an exception process: https://opensource.google.com/docs/iarc/ https://opensource.google.com/docs/iarc/
  - eclipxe 8y ago
    Amazon has an exemption policy.
    - Pfhreak 8y ago
      Not to the game development policies.
- ipsum2 8y ago
  Off the top of my head, there's company policies for employees to work on their own projects at Google, Facebook, and Github.
  - 8y ago

hedora 8y ago

California law expressly prohibits this exact policy. If you want to be able to work on open source (that is unrelated to your job, on your own equipment) on your own time, move to Silicon Valley. Even Amazon employees in CA should be exempt from this policy.

pvg 8y ago
What is the law you're referring to?
- rectang 8y ago
  CA Labor Code 2870.
  - pvg 8y ago
    I don't think that offers nearly the sort ironclad protection the GP is suggesting. The broad exemptions are part of the reason AoI agreements are universal in SV.
yongjik 8y ago
...As long as what you work on does not overlap with anything your employer does. ...which is a big problem if you work at Amazon or Google. (Can you think of a single software project that will not intersect any Google project? Are you sure?)
jenscow 8y ago
> "that is unrelated to your job" My OSS project is "software development". My company's main function is "software development".

mochomocha 8y ago

Netflix.

mcv 8y ago

I refuse any contract where my employer claims ownership of code I wrote in my own time on my own machine that has nothing to do with the work I do for the company. Very few contracts have contained such a clause, and I believe at least one removed such a clause when I requested it. These days I'm self-employed and renting myself out to large companies, and this has never been an issue. They only care about the work I do for them, not about what I do in private.

ex_amazon_sde 8y ago

I worked for Amazon and various other companies. Most of them did not have those restrictions.