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"That ain't exactly helping your case." My case is amoral. Your dislike of that does not change whether or not my statement is true. "Right, but one of them i

"That ain't exactly helping your case." My case is amoral. Your dislike of that does not change whether or not my statement is true. "Right, but one of them is literally a totalitarian dictatorship, and the other is the United States. The US is by every measure the lesser of the two evils." You do realize that there other cultures view us in the exact same fervent manner right?

yellowapple 8y ago
If those unnamed other cultures think that the United States - a representative democracy - is equivalent to or worse than China - (again) a totalitarian dictatorship - then those cultures are objectively and factually wrong. They're entitled to their beliefs, but that entitlement does not equal correctness or sanity.
- chillacy 8y ago
  The representative democracy part doesn’t stop the US from backing other repressive regimes around the world, from South America to Vietnam, in order to serve its own interests. The US having a representative government doesn’t seem to make us treat the people of other nations any better.
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    Like I've been saying, so many people here with rose tinted glasses.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    The alternatives to those repressive regimes were... other repressive regimes, or regimes that were guaranteed to become quickly repressive based on the histories of both the USSR and China.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      Hah, I think guaranteed might be too strong a word to use in matters of a historical what if. Regardless, you don’t have to convince me as much as people living in those countries that the US is working in their interests. And the optics aren’t good right now.
      - yellowapple 8y ago
        Indeed the optics aren't good, but perception != reality. That perception exists because the bad tends to be more visible than the good in general (and for good reason; if something bad is happening, we should by all means be calling it out as loudly as possible). When things are going good (or even just okay), that usually ain't exactly newsworthy. America's dirty laundry is more visible than China's; doesn't mean it's actually dirtier.
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  If you think our form of government has prevented us from doing numerous atrocities that rival China's, you have deluded yourself. You're entitled to remain ignorant, but that entitlement does not equal correctness or sanity.
  - yellowapple 8y ago
    Ah yes, the classic "America did these bad things decades ago so that totally justifies China doing bad things today" argument.
    - thereare5lights 8y ago
      "Ah yes, the classic "America did these bad things decades ago so that totally justifies China doing bad things today" argument." Ah yes, the classic "America is still doing plenty of bad things today but I'll ignore that so that I can pretend we stopped doing it so that I can continue to pretend that China is the only one doing these things today" argument. Or is it the "My argument was < the United States - a representative democracy - is equivalent to or worse than China - (again) a totalitarian dictatorship > so I'll start arguing about how our sins are in the past (even though we never made up for most of them) because that proves that we're better since we're a representative democracy" argument. Can't tell, people make all kinds of funny logical fallacies.
      - yellowapple 8y ago
        Do you have specific examples of what America is doing right now that somehow justifies China's behavior right now or makes it look less bad? Like, I agree America ain't perfect, but last I checked it ain't systematically and officially imprisoning/torturing/enslaving religious minorities, either (as just one example of the sorts of severe human rights violations China is actively committing at this very moment), nor is it actively preventing its citizens from discussing its very-checkered past (let alone present). The "hey America does bad things so please don't mind us while we oppress those Tibetans over there" tactic is nothing new, and has been a staple of Chinese apologists for decades, and it falls apart pretty quickly once you scratch through the surface. Even if we do want to go head-to-head on historical wrongs, the Great Leap Forward alone makes even pre-Civil-Rights-Movement America look utopian in comparison. I guess that's par for the course for these African countries looking for a role model, though: "if China can get away with starving its own people to death while its ruling class eats plentifully and gets richer, then I guess we can, too".

yellowapple 8y ago

If those unnamed other cultures think that the United States - a representative democracy - is equivalent to or worse than China - (again) a totalitarian dictatorship - then those cultures are objectively and factually wrong. They're entitled to their beliefs, but that entitlement does not equal correctness or sanity.

chillacy 8y ago
The representative democracy part doesn’t stop the US from backing other repressive regimes around the world, from South America to Vietnam, in order to serve its own interests. The US having a representative government doesn’t seem to make us treat the people of other nations any better.
- thereare5lights 8y ago
  Like I've been saying, so many people here with rose tinted glasses.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  The alternatives to those repressive regimes were... other repressive regimes, or regimes that were guaranteed to become quickly repressive based on the histories of both the USSR and China.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    Hah, I think guaranteed might be too strong a word to use in matters of a historical what if. Regardless, you don’t have to convince me as much as people living in those countries that the US is working in their interests. And the optics aren’t good right now.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      Indeed the optics aren't good, but perception != reality. That perception exists because the bad tends to be more visible than the good in general (and for good reason; if something bad is happening, we should by all means be calling it out as loudly as possible). When things are going good (or even just okay), that usually ain't exactly newsworthy. America's dirty laundry is more visible than China's; doesn't mean it's actually dirtier.
thereare5lights 8y ago
If you think our form of government has prevented us from doing numerous atrocities that rival China's, you have deluded yourself. You're entitled to remain ignorant, but that entitlement does not equal correctness or sanity.
- yellowapple 8y ago
  Ah yes, the classic "America did these bad things decades ago so that totally justifies China doing bad things today" argument.
  - thereare5lights 8y ago
    "Ah yes, the classic "America did these bad things decades ago so that totally justifies China doing bad things today" argument." Ah yes, the classic "America is still doing plenty of bad things today but I'll ignore that so that I can pretend we stopped doing it so that I can continue to pretend that China is the only one doing these things today" argument. Or is it the "My argument was < the United States - a representative democracy - is equivalent to or worse than China - (again) a totalitarian dictatorship > so I'll start arguing about how our sins are in the past (even though we never made up for most of them) because that proves that we're better since we're a representative democracy" argument. Can't tell, people make all kinds of funny logical fallacies.
    - yellowapple 8y ago
      Do you have specific examples of what America is doing right now that somehow justifies China's behavior right now or makes it look less bad? Like, I agree America ain't perfect, but last I checked it ain't systematically and officially imprisoning/torturing/enslaving religious minorities, either (as just one example of the sorts of severe human rights violations China is actively committing at this very moment), nor is it actively preventing its citizens from discussing its very-checkered past (let alone present). The "hey America does bad things so please don't mind us while we oppress those Tibetans over there" tactic is nothing new, and has been a staple of Chinese apologists for decades, and it falls apart pretty quickly once you scratch through the surface. Even if we do want to go head-to-head on historical wrongs, the Great Leap Forward alone makes even pre-Civil-Rights-Movement America look utopian in comparison. I guess that's par for the course for these African countries looking for a role model, though: "if China can get away with starving its own people to death while its ruling class eats plentifully and gets richer, then I guess we can, too".