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Humane painless animal death after living a full life? How can you humanely kill something which does not want to die? No matter how painless, if you killed me

by uhtred 8y ago

Humane painless animal death after living a full life? How can you humanely kill something which does not want to die? No matter how painless, if you killed me and I had not asked you to, it would not be humane.

pmarreck 8y ago
Actually, if you asked me to kill you and I did, I'd still get arrested due to anti-euthanasia laws (depending on jurisdiction!) Using your reasoning, we should happily eat any animal (possibly including human, but animals also commit suicide sometimes) that suicided... I think death is an inherently ugly thing no matter how you approach it, and given the existence of carnivores and omnivores who are not vultures waiting for food to die before consuming it, I don't think killing in nature for food is avoidable. Pain avoidance is much easier to reason about, however. Like it or not, we are part of the natural world and its strange rules of engagement. Having just watched a hyena eat a wildebeest alive (someone in the comments here posted it), I have to wonder if humans are not the most "humane" killers-for-sustenance on the planet. The most ethical thing we can do (other than creating meat in a lab such as what Impossible Foods is doing... I'm a fan), IMHO, other than go vegan, is to be as humane as possible about the killing bit, give animals as full a life as we can, even if we intend to eat them towards the end of their lives. I believe that one day (possibly in the far future), every human will be vegan. I can't say that it's reasonable to expect everyone to be vegan now, though. The French love their cheese, the Germans love their liverwurst and bratwurst, the Italians love their pizza, and the Japanese love their sushi. I am a huge fan of grilled chicken, eggs and sushi (and the VERY occasional burger or bratwurst... I'm ethnically German, btw) and the wide variety of cheeses out there... these things would be extremely hard for me to give up, so my fallback position, for now, is to obtain these things in as humane a way as is possible for me right now. I commend your veganism, regardless. It is admirable and it is an ideal you have attained in this time and it should be emulated.
- uhtred 8y ago
  But a hyena is a carnivore. Humans are not. A hyena cannot contemplate the finality of death and probably doesn't understand much about the pain it's causing, it's just eating a meal. Humans do understand all those things and on top of that humans do not need to eat meat and are very possibly healthier without it, yet we continue to do so. Also, nearly all meat consumed by humans comes from factory farms which deprive the victims of even at least a natural life up to the point of death. It's a life of emotional and physical torture from birth. What makes you think any animals raised for meat get to live a long life before being killed? Most won't make it to 1 year... After all, who would eat old tough meat? Given that most people in the west can easily get to a fully stocked grocery store with more variety of legumes, grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds not to mention tofu, tempeh, seitan, cashew cheese, ready made vegan goods like beyond burgers, pizzas, vegan egg, vegan sausage... To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals.
  - pmarreck 8y ago
    https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ The highest rated egg producers have "truly pastured" chickens... which is probably as close as you can get to giving them a "natural life" while confining them. Note that there is a mutually-beneficial trade going on here- They do give up their eggs (and eventually themselves), and are (broadly) confined, but while alive they can eat as much as they want and they are secure from predation. I am extremely impressed by Impossible burgers (Beyond is OK, but Impossible... wow.) I haven't tried vegan eggs but if they don't get the yolk almost exactly right I might not be able to switch, can you provide a link? Also, what's your opinion on lab-grown muscle meat? Is it all about ethics for you? > To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. I believe at least the "eggs and milk" can be done in humane ways. Again, we provide an environment for them with unlimited food and minimized risk of predation. In the wild, food would be scarce and predation risk would be ever-present. As far as eating animals... I consider it a near-necessary evil for now that will eventually go away. (I know you're arguing that it isn't necessary, and you're probably right... I'm talking about convincing EVERYONE of this RIGHT NOW tho) > We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals. I have an idea you might like. What if you took a few friends to do a field trip to the source of the meats/eggs/cheese they eat (after doing the homework to investigate where these are, of course)? Judgment-free. And also to observe treatment and (if you can stomach it, and if they permit it, which they may not) the slaughtering part. I'd go on that trip. Observed truth is the best argument...
    - uhtred 8y ago
      so what happens to the male chicks that are born in the egg industry? They get killed, by gassing, suffocation or being thrown into a grinder. Why does a dairy cow produce milk? because she has a baby. Where does that baby go after birth? I mean, the milk is for the humans, not the baby cow, right? Baby cow gets taken from mother causing intense emotional pain for both, and if male, sold into incredibly cruel veal industry or beef industry or just killed. If female she goes through the same lifelong torture of repeated rape, then having her baby stolen, then being milked raw by machines, in lonely terror, as her mother, for around 4 years, before her poor body is spent and she is shot as humans have no use for her. Dairy cows have possibly an even crueler fate than beef cows. How is any of this humane? Why would I ever go to see any of this happening? There is so much written and video evidence available online, I don't need to go and see it happening myself. Think about how much meat, cheese and eggs people in America alone throw down their throats every day. There is no way this demand could ever be met by anything other than the most cruel and heartless industrial scale production methods where animals are no more than a commodity to be exploited.

by uhtred 8y ago

pmarreck 8y ago

Actually, if you asked me to kill you and I did, I'd still get arrested due to anti-euthanasia laws (depending on jurisdiction!) Using your reasoning, we should happily eat any animal (possibly including human, but animals also commit suicide sometimes) that suicided... I think death is an inherently ugly thing no matter how you approach it, and given the existence of carnivores and omnivores who are not vultures waiting for food to die before consuming it, I don't think killing in nature for food is avoidable. Pain avoidance is much easier to reason about, however. Like it or not, we are part of the natural world and its strange rules of engagement. Having just watched a hyena eat a wildebeest alive (someone in the comments here posted it), I have to wonder if humans are not the most "humane" killers-for-sustenance on the planet. The most ethical thing we can do (other than creating meat in a lab such as what Impossible Foods is doing... I'm a fan), IMHO, other than go vegan, is to be as humane as possible about the killing bit, give animals as full a life as we can, even if we intend to eat them towards the end of their lives. I believe that one day (possibly in the far future), every human will be vegan. I can't say that it's reasonable to expect everyone to be vegan now, though. The French love their cheese, the Germans love their liverwurst and bratwurst, the Italians love their pizza, and the Japanese love their sushi. I am a huge fan of grilled chicken, eggs and sushi (and the VERY occasional burger or bratwurst... I'm ethnically German, btw) and the wide variety of cheeses out there... these things would be extremely hard for me to give up, so my fallback position, for now, is to obtain these things in as humane a way as is possible for me right now. I commend your veganism, regardless. It is admirable and it is an ideal you have attained in this time and it should be emulated.

uhtred 8y ago
But a hyena is a carnivore. Humans are not. A hyena cannot contemplate the finality of death and probably doesn't understand much about the pain it's causing, it's just eating a meal. Humans do understand all those things and on top of that humans do not need to eat meat and are very possibly healthier without it, yet we continue to do so. Also, nearly all meat consumed by humans comes from factory farms which deprive the victims of even at least a natural life up to the point of death. It's a life of emotional and physical torture from birth. What makes you think any animals raised for meat get to live a long life before being killed? Most won't make it to 1 year... After all, who would eat old tough meat? Given that most people in the west can easily get to a fully stocked grocery store with more variety of legumes, grains, vegetables, fruits, nuts, seeds not to mention tofu, tempeh, seitan, cashew cheese, ready made vegan goods like beyond burgers, pizzas, vegan egg, vegan sausage... To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals.
- pmarreck 8y ago
  https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ The highest rated egg producers have "truly pastured" chickens... which is probably as close as you can get to giving them a "natural life" while confining them. Note that there is a mutually-beneficial trade going on here- They do give up their eggs (and eventually themselves), and are (broadly) confined, but while alive they can eat as much as they want and they are secure from predation. I am extremely impressed by Impossible burgers (Beyond is OK, but Impossible... wow.) I haven't tried vegan eggs but if they don't get the yolk almost exactly right I might not be able to switch, can you provide a link? Also, what's your opinion on lab-grown muscle meat? Is it all about ethics for you? > To me it seems incredibly cruel to continue to eat animals and their eggs and milk. I believe at least the "eggs and milk" can be done in humane ways. Again, we provide an environment for them with unlimited food and minimized risk of predation. In the wild, food would be scarce and predation risk would be ever-present. As far as eating animals... I consider it a near-necessary evil for now that will eventually go away. (I know you're arguing that it isn't necessary, and you're probably right... I'm talking about convincing EVERYONE of this RIGHT NOW tho) > We don't need to do it anymore and to continue to do so is willfully supporting cruelty against animals. I have an idea you might like. What if you took a few friends to do a field trip to the source of the meats/eggs/cheese they eat (after doing the homework to investigate where these are, of course)? Judgment-free. And also to observe treatment and (if you can stomach it, and if they permit it, which they may not) the slaughtering part. I'd go on that trip. Observed truth is the best argument...
  - uhtred 8y ago
    so what happens to the male chicks that are born in the egg industry? They get killed, by gassing, suffocation or being thrown into a grinder. Why does a dairy cow produce milk? because she has a baby. Where does that baby go after birth? I mean, the milk is for the humans, not the baby cow, right? Baby cow gets taken from mother causing intense emotional pain for both, and if male, sold into incredibly cruel veal industry or beef industry or just killed. If female she goes through the same lifelong torture of repeated rape, then having her baby stolen, then being milked raw by machines, in lonely terror, as her mother, for around 4 years, before her poor body is spent and she is shot as humans have no use for her. Dairy cows have possibly an even crueler fate than beef cows. How is any of this humane? Why would I ever go to see any of this happening? There is so much written and video evidence available online, I don't need to go and see it happening myself. Think about how much meat, cheese and eggs people in America alone throw down their throats every day. There is no way this demand could ever be met by anything other than the most cruel and heartless industrial scale production methods where animals are no more than a commodity to be exploited.