5 ms·

Although on HN it looks like there's some kind of competition happening, Rust is a rounding error compared to languages like Java, C# or even Swift which are ac

• tptacek 8y ago
  The subtext of Rust in posts like this is that Rust compiles programs that are pin-compatible with C/C++ programs. Without rethinking the architecture of a kernel, for instance, you're meant to be able to write Rust drivers. I prefer other higher-level languages to Rust; I'd rather just work with garbage collection than wrangle the Rust borrow-checker. But if you need to write software that can't abide GC, Rust is basically the only memory-safe game in town.
  • pjmlp 8y ago
    Although I like Rust for those scenarios where GC isn't an option, I bet Ada/SPARK still have more commercial deployments out there. It might change given the price of their compilers versus free rustc, however those are industries that also certify compilers, which isn't going to happen for the time being for Rust toolchains. Also Rust still isn't pin-compatible with COM/UWP or Objective-C runtime, and I guess we need to wait around one year until mixed language debugging experience is a thing across all major IDEs.
    • zozbot123 8y ago
      > Also Rust still isn't pin-compatible with COM/UWP or Objective-C runtime Both COM and Objective-C can be accessed from C, and Rust is compatible with the C FFI.
      • pjmlp 8y ago
        Since Windows 3.x days actually, but only by those masochist enough to use the C API, or low level OS devs on the respective companies. Anyone else that praises productivity uses programming languages that take care of the lowlevel boilerplate, and offer high level debugging experience on the respective IDEs.
    • saagarjha 8y ago
      > Also Rust still isn't pin-compatible with COM/UWP or Objective-C runtime I found this: https://github.com/SSheldon/rust-objc/ https://github.com/SSheldon/rust-objc/
      • pjmlp 8y ago
        How does it integrate with XCode or AppCode debugging experience, code generation and UI designers?
        • saagarjha 8y ago
          Compile to a static library and drag it into the Xcode sidebar?
          • pjmlp 8y ago
            What about generating a Core Data model in Rust?
        • pcwalton 8y ago
          Debugging works just fine. Cross-language debugging in Xcode even works, because LLVM generates the debug info.
          • pjmlp 8y ago
            And designing a Core Data model in Rust? Implementing an XPC server or an IO Kit driver? Writing Metal shaders? These are the kinds of issues that I am referring to.
    • pcwalton 8y ago
      > Although I like Rust for those scenarios where GC isn't an option, I bet Ada/SPARK still have more commercial deployments out there. I doubt it, if you're counting users. Hundreds of millions of users of Firefox and Dropbox, just to name the first two that come to mind, use Rust code. > Also Rust still isn't pin-compatible with COM/UWP or Objective-C runtime What? Of course it is. We're shipping Rust code that uses COM and Objective-C in Firefox beta, right now (WebRender).
      • pjmlp 8y ago
        Of course statistics is the art to make the numbers how we like them to be. On my case I am counting systems in production. Using COM is a tiny portion of COM development experience. Where is the Rust support for creating COM and UWP components, including mixed mode debugging on Windows IDEs, likewise for Objective-C integration. If I missed that, where can I find more about it?
        • pcwalton 8y ago
          Again, we ship COM components. You can't load local fonts on all versions of DirectWrite without that. Likewise, Rust has had support for creating Objective-C classes with methods written in Rust for ages. You can't usefully render OpenGL into a window on macOS without doing that.
          • pjmlp 8y ago
            In that case it would be nice to actually answer my question. > If I missed that, where can I find more about it? How do COM type libraries get generated in Rust?
  • vardump 8y ago
    > ...Rust is basically the only memory-safe game in town. How about thread safety? Are there other thread safe games in town?
    • Svenskunganka 8y ago
      As far as I know, only the Pony Programming Language[0] statically ensures identical guarantees as Rust, but it is not 1.0 and the community is tiny. Pony takes a wildly different approach to achieving those guarantees though - and it's more geared towards highly concurrent servers rather than the wide spectrum of programming domains that Rust embodies (embedded, systems, etc). It uses actor-based concurrency, is AOT compiled, has a concurrent GC without stop-the-world collection and ships with a "cache-aware, work-stealing scheduler" runtime. Similarly steep learning curve as Rust with its Reference Capabilities which is Pony's equivalent to Rust's ownership & borrow checker. [0]: https://www.ponylang.io/discover/ https://www.ponylang.io/discover/
  • blub 8y ago
    nickp mentioned some alternatives, basically verified C or model-driven development for cases where it really matters. Anyway, if we stick to standard commercial projects, I'd say the languages I enumerated are solid C++ (and Rust) competitors, because C++ at least isn't used to develop only super-performant or low-level bit twiddling SW, and I don't see why Rust would be either. Obj-C was a solid C++ competitor on anything Apple and now Swift maybe even more so. It's a great language that can get you 95% there and I can almost guarantee that the remaining 5% won't be Rust, but rather C or C++. Same goes more or less for Android with Java or Kotlin. Having a GC didn't stop them from becoming the platform standard, despite the embarassing growing pains they had. It's really a game of platforms. Almost no one would pick a language because it's memory-safe, it's just a standard feature for most kinds of software developed nowadays. For the SW where Rust and C++ would both be good fit (gaming?, audio, video, etc), C++ is entrenched and it's very unlikely that companies will have to justify using it instead of Rust in 2019 or 2020, erc when it's already the default in the first place.
    • pjmlp 8y ago
      A hard lesson I took from my experience with Turbo Pascal, Oberon and others, is that platform languages always win in the end. Better syntax, improved semantics are nice, but if the debugging experience, IDE tooling and integration with platform libraries take a hit, then in the long run, the improvements aren't really worthwile. However, given that Google (Fuchsia), Microsoft (IoT Core, Azure), Oracle (railcar), Amazon (Firecracker) are testing waters with Rust, I guess it might eventually become a blessed language in some of their systems. But it will take time for sure, specially regarding tooling parity.
      • acdha 8y ago
        I’ve been trying to correct my instincts from that era for the success of open source. It’s a lot easier now to collaborate, especially without things licensing, and the tools built around things like LLVM seem like a significant shift for the costs of a non-default language.
        • 8y ago
• steveklabnik 8y ago
  As someone currently looking for a job with Rust, there are tons of opportunities out there. I am obviously a bit of a special case, but I’ve had probably forty inquiries so far, from several FAANGs, YC startups, and others. There's enough that even though there are some places that didn't reach out and that I know are using Rust, I haven't had the time to apply myself. It is true that there’s no nearly as many as Java or C++, but that’s pretty normal given relative ages.
  • blub 8y ago
    Yeah, you might be a special case. Wouldn't be surprised if there were dozens of companies in total using Rust and you got contacted by most of them. I'm also looking in Europe, not US.
    • steveklabnik 8y ago
      I'd like to end up in Berlin in the near future, so I hear you there. Some of them do require being in the US, it's true.
    • dbcfd 8y ago
      I think one of the January Who's Hiring jobs was a company doing Rust, but looking for onsite in Berlin or remote in europe. Maybe one in London as well.
  • yuushi 8y ago
    I mean, you really are a special case - I have only lightly dabbled in Rust, but I immediately recognize your name because of the work you've done in the Rust community.
• dbcfd 8y ago
  If you want an easy time finding a job, Java or Javascript will definitely accomplish that. It is not however impossible to find jobs in Rust at the moment. I think January's Who is Hiring post had 5 rust job listings. Rust is still not used in a wide range of industries, but you can find a number of opportunities in crypto, fintech, security, and even a few big data shops. And yes, there's even more jobs that aren't always out there on public channels. Good reason to attend your local rust meetup.
• acdha 8y ago
  That’s true in general but what I was referring to are the subset of new projects where someone would pick C++ instead of Java, C#, Go, etc. The latter are definitely more popular in general and I’d expect there to be far more cases where they’d be selected, so rejecting them for technical reasons would tend to bring you into areas like not using a runtime or GC.
• yuushi 8y ago
  If you have the luxury of choosing between C++ and Java/C#, then you don't need C++.
• vorg 8y ago
  > when considering whether to start a project in Rust. Project = commercial product that makes money, not OSS or start-up dreams How do you know whether the commercial product is going to make money when you're still considering what programming language to write it in? Until it's built and launched, it's just a "commercial product dream", similar to a "start-up dream".