7 ms·

I've been vegan 20 years. Big, socially-censured changes can seem daunting, but anyone who says you can't eat well, and easily, is fooling themselves. You eith

I've been vegan 20 years. Big, socially-censured changes can seem daunting, but anyone who says you can't eat well, and easily, is fooling themselves. You either live your values, or come to terms with being part of what you don't like about the world.

agumonkey 8y ago
Not what I was saying. Eating meat is natural, it's been for cosmic ages, and to an extent I have no issue with that. The mass globalized consumption does bother me. I reduce my consumption. I might try vegan but I'll surely miss all the meat based products. Maybe I'll find a middle point by breeding, killing producing it myself so at least I did it on my own, think what you want, there's a form of respect in that. I don't think I will enjoy 100% vegan. Another option is synthetic meat, we'll see.
- hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
  > Eating meat is natural, it's been for cosmic ages, and to an extent I have no issue with that. That's true, but I think a similar argument can be made that any situation where the more powerful control the less powerful is natural, e.g. slavery, patriarchy, etc. That said, I think the first step for everyone is to realize the cognitive dissonance that modern society tries to keep in place when it comes to eating meat (i.e. meat is just a nice, tasty hunk of protein that comes wrapped in plastic and styrofoam from the grocery storeand is in no way related to that adorable cow video I saw on Instagram). If that were more common I think many people would try to at least consume animal products more humanely as you have suggested.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I was thinking about pre settlers hunting, where humans were only slightly above other animals (and in some land, probably on par or below). I agree that last 50 years made us completely oblivious to reality. Which is probably the first reason for waste and over consumption. our grandparents still lived in an era where they were a lot close to nature (vegies or animal) they used to do that with their own hands. To me that's the least you can do. And it has a lot of individual and social benefits too. You know more what is around, you enjoy more what you have, it creates group rituals.
  - pathseeker 8y ago
    >meat is just a nice, tasty hunk of protein that comes wrapped in plastic and styrofoam from the grocery storeand is in no way related to that adorable cow video I saw on Instagram Honest question. Are people this ignorant? I grew up around ranches so the source of meat is blindingly obvious to me. Are people really seeing beef in the grocery store as magic that comes from nowhere?
    - the_gastropod 8y ago
      I don't think people are necessarily that ignorant. But the dirty business of slaughtering animals has been hidden away from public eye extremely well. There's a certain "out of sight out of mind" aspect to it. If, to eat meat, people had to kill the animal themselves, what proportion of meat eaters do you think would continue the practice? I obviously don't know the answer, but I suspect it would be far less than 100%.
      - icebraining 8y ago
        If the urban dwellers like me suddenly had to kill their own prey, I agree we'd see a surge of vegans. But on the other hand, I think that's also because that disconnect allows people to think about cows as "cute". The people I know who grew up raising and killing their own animals have a much more utilitarian view of the matter. It could be that the alienation brought by modern slaughter is the keystone in bringing about a substantial reduction in the number of eaters of animals; now that would be ironic!
        sayno3 8y ago
        Speaking of disconnects, I find it ridiculous that people fret over manufactured ethics that one can easily assimilate for social gain, (read:own) while those same ethics would eventually lead to a situation where one has to perform the same act (ending life for the sake of life, either in the form of animal population control or human progress). All the while having absolutely no problem in participating in much larger systems that perpetuate much worse. To me, hearing people talk about ethical animal consumption is like hearing Dr Mengele talk about fracking versus coal, and obviously feeling superior while talking about it. People can't even treat other people half decently.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- spurgu 8y ago
  Agreed. I'm vegan but I would definitely not turn down eating animals caught in the wild, especially if I was part of the hunt. But I would also never hunt just for the sport. It's the mass production of intelligent beings* in horrible conditions that bothers me the most. Fishing is another dilemma. Technically as per above definition eating fish (unless bred) would be fine, but then again we've destroyed so much of the fish population already. If I were out at sea then sure, but just for pleasure right now while being land based? No thanks. *) this first part of the sentence alone is enough for me to not want to have any part of it
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    Even gun hunting feels too sadistic to me. I'd use a bow or a rope and that's it. When I'll be too old to jump .. I'll hope I made enough kids to fulfill that role :)
    - mikestew 8y ago
      Even gun hunting feels too sadistic to me. If you think it's sadistic to hunt with the stopping power (and typically quicker death) of a rifle, you're not going to like bow hunting much.
      - agumonkey 8y ago
        No it's the overwhelming ease of killing a gun offers.
        hoorayimhelping 8y ago
        Right. I think the point is, it's much better than the alternative. Which is realizing you missed your shot and the deer you were trying to kill humanely (ya know, to show respect and commune with nature) will now take eight hours to die in slow agony with an arrow sticking out of her cause you can't find where she ran off to.
        8y ago
- fnovd 8y ago
  >Eating meat is natural Relieving yourself outdoors is natural, and we've been doing it for ages. Killing intraspecies rivals/competitors is natural, and we've been doing it for ages. Dying of a preventable disease is natural, and we've been doing it for ages. I don't think we should base our behavior off naturalistic fallacies. Is eating meat better for your health than abstaining? Usually not. Is eating meat better for the environment? Usually not. It's very easy to just eat meat and dismiss veganism as impractical because that's the socially dominant position to have. It's easier than ever to transition to a more vegan diet. There are hundreds of replacement products to ease your transition if it's something you care about. There are ethical, environmental, and health-conscious reasons to reduce or eliminate meat consumption. Conversely, many arguments for eating meat are just appeals to tradition or appeals to nature. The industrial production of meat, which is universally detested, actually supplies the vast majority of meat consumed in the US.
  - omeid2 8y ago
    What is a naturalistic fallacy?
    - fnovd 8y ago
      Apparently the concept I was referring to is called appeal to nature, not a naturalistic fallacy.
  - manmal 8y ago
    That’s the most careful vegan pitch I‘ve ever seen, cudos. I‘m all for reducing meat consumption. We don’t need meat every day, and maybe not even every week. Everybody except meat processing companies would be better off. My personal view is that complete meat avoidance will lead to long term health challenges, 5-10y down the road. There‘s too much valid-sounding criticism of the china study to just believe its conclusions. Some low-mercury seafood every now and then does loads for your health.
  - mensetmanusman 8y ago
    Our political and cultural system is largely based on the naturalistic fallicy, one can't blame people too much for following it.
- yesenadam 8y ago
  I haven't eaten meat in nearly 30 years, and literally haven't missed it once, ever. Have never craved it at all. I guess I wouldn't have expected that! It feels strange writing 'have never craved it'...ghoulish or something. Vegetarianism/veganism just becomes a habit, and once you're outside the, er, 'meat world', you can see the brainwashing, it's not pretty. All those heart-warming tv ads for eating lamb etc. (Kill and eat cute little sheep!??) The word 'meat' sounds...well, something akin to how 'long pig' sounds - somewhat disturbing. (I did a cartoon once of a cow saying "Hi! I'm a meat animal.") I hate how the fish in the oceans are referred to as 'fish stock', as if they only exist as food for humans. It bugs me more that humans are eating them all, and polluting the oceans with nets in doing it! Personally, I'm a lazy vegan - I do vegan shopping, but don't refuse everything offered with some dairy in it. That would be a pain. Cheesy dishes just don't taste good to me now, they seem...smelly (e.g. it's getting harder to find pesto without cheese added..blech) But I infrequently think about what I eat or don't. Apart from these few times on HN, I haven't thought about it in years. I was more of a vegan activist when young...but I don't think I changed anyone's mind. It seems almost impossible for someone to see that something nearly everyone does is totally unethical. I can't remember what flipped the switch in my head. I think it just dawned on me one day.
  - goldenkey 8y ago
    If an act is selfless, and the opposite is socially accepted, you won't find many takers.. The ethics matter and I'm sure huge swathes of people are in denial and subscribed to the fallacies listed above in this thread - but ultimately it comes down to doing what is right when no one is checking you except for a few high level thinkers and the universe itself. It also takes commitment. I've been vegan before and I'm trying it again - usually stomach problems force me to at least retain cheese. I think with Elmhurst's new peanut protein shakes, Ill be able to stick to it. Give the vanilla one a try - they are amazing and so much better than soy. https://elmhurst1925.com/shop/protein-shakes.html https://elmhurst1925.com/shop/protein-shakes.html
- leaf_house 8y ago
  Why not set yourself the challenge of only eating ethically farmed animal products? I think you’d find this ends up leading to a mostly vegan lifestyle unless you’re willing to devote considerable time and money.
  - agumonkey 8y ago
    I almost considered moving to start a farming thing with a relative.
majani 8y ago
Even in the growing and harvesting of plants, large amounts of animals get killed in the process. The moles underground, the rabbits and hares that eat the plants, the rats and snakes that shelter in the piles of harvest etc, they all have to be killed en masse to ensure a good harvest. Given this fact, veganism appears to me like a refusal to accept the reality that this world is a harsh one full of chaos. I prefer to focus on sustainable consumption as the reasonable balance between the two extremes of veganism and American fast food.
- fnovd 8y ago
  The largest consumer of crops grown in the United States are our farmed animals. Eating soybeans directly instead of sending them to factory farms reduces the amount of animals killed, both in the factories and on the fields. There is no trade-off in terms of animal death when switching to a plant-based diet. You are always killing fewer animals.
- leaf_house 8y ago
  This is a common logical fallacy used to justify your current lifestyle. Veganism is not about moral purity, its about the tangible impact of your actions.
- goldenkey 8y ago
  Torture is the main ethical reason to not eat meat. You are right about death - we all die, nothing new there. But doing the right thing is never about purity - its about choosing the actions that cause the least bad will. Torture and Death should not be chosen over Incidental Death if one wants to be honest about acting with pragmatic good will.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

agumonkey 8y ago

Not what I was saying. Eating meat is natural, it's been for cosmic ages, and to an extent I have no issue with that. The mass globalized consumption does bother me. I reduce my consumption. I might try vegan but I'll surely miss all the meat based products. Maybe I'll find a middle point by breeding, killing producing it myself so at least I did it on my own, think what you want, there's a form of respect in that. I don't think I will enjoy 100% vegan. Another option is synthetic meat, we'll see.

hn_throwaway_99 8y ago
> Eating meat is natural, it's been for cosmic ages, and to an extent I have no issue with that. That's true, but I think a similar argument can be made that any situation where the more powerful control the less powerful is natural, e.g. slavery, patriarchy, etc. That said, I think the first step for everyone is to realize the cognitive dissonance that modern society tries to keep in place when it comes to eating meat (i.e. meat is just a nice, tasty hunk of protein that comes wrapped in plastic and styrofoam from the grocery storeand is in no way related to that adorable cow video I saw on Instagram). If that were more common I think many people would try to at least consume animal products more humanely as you have suggested.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  I was thinking about pre settlers hunting, where humans were only slightly above other animals (and in some land, probably on par or below). I agree that last 50 years made us completely oblivious to reality. Which is probably the first reason for waste and over consumption. our grandparents still lived in an era where they were a lot close to nature (vegies or animal) they used to do that with their own hands. To me that's the least you can do. And it has a lot of individual and social benefits too. You know more what is around, you enjoy more what you have, it creates group rituals.
- pathseeker 8y ago
  >meat is just a nice, tasty hunk of protein that comes wrapped in plastic and styrofoam from the grocery storeand is in no way related to that adorable cow video I saw on Instagram Honest question. Are people this ignorant? I grew up around ranches so the source of meat is blindingly obvious to me. Are people really seeing beef in the grocery store as magic that comes from nowhere?
  - the_gastropod 8y ago
    I don't think people are necessarily that ignorant. But the dirty business of slaughtering animals has been hidden away from public eye extremely well. There's a certain "out of sight out of mind" aspect to it. If, to eat meat, people had to kill the animal themselves, what proportion of meat eaters do you think would continue the practice? I obviously don't know the answer, but I suspect it would be far less than 100%.
    - icebraining 8y ago
      If the urban dwellers like me suddenly had to kill their own prey, I agree we'd see a surge of vegans. But on the other hand, I think that's also because that disconnect allows people to think about cows as "cute". The people I know who grew up raising and killing their own animals have a much more utilitarian view of the matter. It could be that the alienation brought by modern slaughter is the keystone in bringing about a substantial reduction in the number of eaters of animals; now that would be ironic!
      - sayno3 8y ago
        Speaking of disconnects, I find it ridiculous that people fret over manufactured ethics that one can easily assimilate for social gain, (read:own) while those same ethics would eventually lead to a situation where one has to perform the same act (ending life for the sake of life, either in the form of animal population control or human progress). All the while having absolutely no problem in participating in much larger systems that perpetuate much worse. To me, hearing people talk about ethical animal consumption is like hearing Dr Mengele talk about fracking versus coal, and obviously feeling superior while talking about it. People can't even treat other people half decently.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
spurgu 8y ago
Agreed. I'm vegan but I would definitely not turn down eating animals caught in the wild, especially if I was part of the hunt. But I would also never hunt just for the sport. It's the mass production of intelligent beings* in horrible conditions that bothers me the most. Fishing is another dilemma. Technically as per above definition eating fish (unless bred) would be fine, but then again we've destroyed so much of the fish population already. If I were out at sea then sure, but just for pleasure right now while being land based? No thanks. *) this first part of the sentence alone is enough for me to not want to have any part of it
- agumonkey 8y ago
  Even gun hunting feels too sadistic to me. I'd use a bow or a rope and that's it. When I'll be too old to jump .. I'll hope I made enough kids to fulfill that role :)
  - mikestew 8y ago
    Even gun hunting feels too sadistic to me. If you think it's sadistic to hunt with the stopping power (and typically quicker death) of a rifle, you're not going to like bow hunting much.
    - agumonkey 8y ago
      No it's the overwhelming ease of killing a gun offers.
      - hoorayimhelping 8y ago
        Right. I think the point is, it's much better than the alternative. Which is realizing you missed your shot and the deer you were trying to kill humanely (ya know, to show respect and commune with nature) will now take eight hours to die in slow agony with an arrow sticking out of her cause you can't find where she ran off to.
        8y ago
fnovd 8y ago
>Eating meat is natural Relieving yourself outdoors is natural, and we've been doing it for ages. Killing intraspecies rivals/competitors is natural, and we've been doing it for ages. Dying of a preventable disease is natural, and we've been doing it for ages. I don't think we should base our behavior off naturalistic fallacies. Is eating meat better for your health than abstaining? Usually not. Is eating meat better for the environment? Usually not. It's very easy to just eat meat and dismiss veganism as impractical because that's the socially dominant position to have. It's easier than ever to transition to a more vegan diet. There are hundreds of replacement products to ease your transition if it's something you care about. There are ethical, environmental, and health-conscious reasons to reduce or eliminate meat consumption. Conversely, many arguments for eating meat are just appeals to tradition or appeals to nature. The industrial production of meat, which is universally detested, actually supplies the vast majority of meat consumed in the US.
- omeid2 8y ago
  What is a naturalistic fallacy?
  - fnovd 8y ago
    Apparently the concept I was referring to is called appeal to nature, not a naturalistic fallacy.
- manmal 8y ago
  That’s the most careful vegan pitch I‘ve ever seen, cudos. I‘m all for reducing meat consumption. We don’t need meat every day, and maybe not even every week. Everybody except meat processing companies would be better off. My personal view is that complete meat avoidance will lead to long term health challenges, 5-10y down the road. There‘s too much valid-sounding criticism of the china study to just believe its conclusions. Some low-mercury seafood every now and then does loads for your health.
- mensetmanusman 8y ago
  Our political and cultural system is largely based on the naturalistic fallicy, one can't blame people too much for following it.
yesenadam 8y ago
I haven't eaten meat in nearly 30 years, and literally haven't missed it once, ever. Have never craved it at all. I guess I wouldn't have expected that! It feels strange writing 'have never craved it'...ghoulish or something. Vegetarianism/veganism just becomes a habit, and once you're outside the, er, 'meat world', you can see the brainwashing, it's not pretty. All those heart-warming tv ads for eating lamb etc. (Kill and eat cute little sheep!??) The word 'meat' sounds...well, something akin to how 'long pig' sounds - somewhat disturbing. (I did a cartoon once of a cow saying "Hi! I'm a meat animal.") I hate how the fish in the oceans are referred to as 'fish stock', as if they only exist as food for humans. It bugs me more that humans are eating them all, and polluting the oceans with nets in doing it! Personally, I'm a lazy vegan - I do vegan shopping, but don't refuse everything offered with some dairy in it. That would be a pain. Cheesy dishes just don't taste good to me now, they seem...smelly (e.g. it's getting harder to find pesto without cheese added..blech) But I infrequently think about what I eat or don't. Apart from these few times on HN, I haven't thought about it in years. I was more of a vegan activist when young...but I don't think I changed anyone's mind. It seems almost impossible for someone to see that something nearly everyone does is totally unethical. I can't remember what flipped the switch in my head. I think it just dawned on me one day.
- goldenkey 8y ago
  If an act is selfless, and the opposite is socially accepted, you won't find many takers.. The ethics matter and I'm sure huge swathes of people are in denial and subscribed to the fallacies listed above in this thread - but ultimately it comes down to doing what is right when no one is checking you except for a few high level thinkers and the universe itself. It also takes commitment. I've been vegan before and I'm trying it again - usually stomach problems force me to at least retain cheese. I think with Elmhurst's new peanut protein shakes, Ill be able to stick to it. Give the vanilla one a try - they are amazing and so much better than soy. https://elmhurst1925.com/shop/protein-shakes.html https://elmhurst1925.com/shop/protein-shakes.html
leaf_house 8y ago
Why not set yourself the challenge of only eating ethically farmed animal products? I think you’d find this ends up leading to a mostly vegan lifestyle unless you’re willing to devote considerable time and money.
- agumonkey 8y ago
  I almost considered moving to start a farming thing with a relative.

majani 8y ago

Even in the growing and harvesting of plants, large amounts of animals get killed in the process. The moles underground, the rabbits and hares that eat the plants, the rats and snakes that shelter in the piles of harvest etc, they all have to be killed en masse to ensure a good harvest. Given this fact, veganism appears to me like a refusal to accept the reality that this world is a harsh one full of chaos. I prefer to focus on sustainable consumption as the reasonable balance between the two extremes of veganism and American fast food.

fnovd 8y ago
The largest consumer of crops grown in the United States are our farmed animals. Eating soybeans directly instead of sending them to factory farms reduces the amount of animals killed, both in the factories and on the fields. There is no trade-off in terms of animal death when switching to a plant-based diet. You are always killing fewer animals.
leaf_house 8y ago
This is a common logical fallacy used to justify your current lifestyle. Veganism is not about moral purity, its about the tangible impact of your actions.
goldenkey 8y ago
Torture is the main ethical reason to not eat meat. You are right about death - we all die, nothing new there. But doing the right thing is never about purity - its about choosing the actions that cause the least bad will. Torture and Death should not be chosen over Incidental Death if one wants to be honest about acting with pragmatic good will.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]