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How can you continue to eat other animals if you feel the way you do about other animals?

• shashwatak 8y ago
  Because they're delicious :(
  • uhtred 8y ago
    So a brief moment of taste pleasure is worth the suffering and killing of another creature that feels physical and emotional pain?
    • perfmode 8y ago
      I oscillate between reason and impulse. We are creatures of habit and the environment in which we act is full of nudges toward omnivorous decisions.
    • ndiscussion 8y ago
      Obviously yes for most people, since vegans are a tiny minority. Bit of a high horse you're on there.
      • AnIdiotOnTheNet 8y ago
        I think most people who are in this predicament consciously choose not to think about it in order to avoid the cognitive dissonance. Destroying your philosophical model of reality and remaking it is not exactly a pleasant process. Something you find out when you go vegetarian or vegan is that if that gets brought up, which usually happens in the context of rejecting an offer of food or being questioned about why your plate only has crackers at a potluck, many meat eaters will suddenly feel the need to explain why they think it is ok to eat meat. Perhaps that's just preemptive and a result of encountering more militant vegetarians in the past, but I think it is more likely to be a result of being reminded of their cognitive dissonance. Who are they trying to convince? I didn't ask for an explanation of their dietary choices and don't feel any particular need to explain mine.
        • abugheratwork 8y ago
          They're being jerks, but why is an interesting question. I don't think it's a cognitive dissonance thing, at least where I've seen that picture. I think it's an us/them thing. Specifically, the kind where one group gets the idea that another is out to get them. (That "militant vegetarian" you mention is someone I have heard about my whole life yet never met.) If they don't have a lot of vegetarian friends, you may be their first chance to have a conversation about it, and that's probably the only one they rehearsed. It may not be as crystallized as other areas, yet, but I think this is also one more field for cultural proxy wars, as we all get drafted into us/them camps. Again, at the individual level, you might notice the person doing the attacking always thinks they're defending. Complicated big picture stuff at play.
        • pathseeker 8y ago
          > encountering more militant vegetarians in the past, but I think it is more likely to be a result of being reminded of their cognitive dissonance. Don't project onto people you clearly don't understand. Creating mental models of people you disagree with that involves making them stupid or living in dissonance does a disservice to yourself (by making you ignorant), to them (by you spreading your ignorance), and to wider political debates in general (it's very difficult to come to an understanding when people are incapable of understanding the other side).
          • pmarreck 8y ago
            Whoa, whoa, whoa. Stating a rational fact about someone's cognitive dissonance "makes them stupid" or "spreads your ignorance"? I carry that cognitive dissonance (I know animals feel; I believe they have souls; and yet I continue to eat meat); the difference is that I (through tons of introspection) have made peace with my (very few) dissonances and therefore, calling me out on it (as someone did further up the comment chain here) will result simply in me acknowledging their observation (without any emotional/anger element).
      • maxxxxx 8y ago
        I bet the number of vegetarians would go up quite a bit if people had to slaughter animals themselves if they wanted meat. Our society is pretty good at hiding the dirty work from people.
        • icebraining 8y ago
          Looking at my grandparents' generation, who had to do just that, I wouldn't count on it.
          • maxxxxx 8y ago
            My parents both grew up on farms where they slaughtered their own animals. They ate meat maybe once a week or less. So at a minimum meat consumption would go down.
            • int_19h 8y ago
              I suspect the reason why they ate meat rarely was because it was expensive (even when it's your animal, it still has a cost), not because they were squeamish about it.
    • deagle50 8y ago
      What if someone else is doing the killing and I'm doing the eating? Not being facetious, I struggle with this and I don't fully buy into the "guilt by association" angle. If I stopped eating meat today, animals would still be killed at exactly the same scale as before. So what would have I accomplished besides depriving myself of nutrients? If we could all do it together I'd be on board. Maybe we can start with "meat credits" or some other kind of demand reduction? That really helped curb climate change.... I think portion control would be a more effective approach. A little meat goes a long way. I think you'll get further convincing the public with a moderation message than a black and while moral argument.
      • uhtred 8y ago
        If you stopped eating meat and replaced it with a balanced vegan diet you wouldn't be depriving yourself of anything other than heart disease, stroke, cancer, diabetes etc. You'd be the winner. Also, you'd be doing your part in reducing the demand for all those animals to be raised and slaughtered. If everyone had the opinion of "well what's the point unless everyone does it" no good change would ever happen.
        • quantum_magpie 8y ago
          I do agree that there are a lot of people eating too much meat, but the diseases you mention are all caused by overeating in general, and are just as easy to get on a vegan diet.
          • uhtred 8y ago
            No. I said a balanced vegan diet. Even over eating whole grains, vegetables, fruit, nuts, seeds and legumes whilst not eating foods that have cholesterol (meat, eggs, dairy - literally any animal products) plus the evidence of red meat and processed meat causing cancer, means I do have much less chance of having any of those diseases I mentioned.
        • deagle50 8y ago
          But it is pointless unless everyone does it, at least until a large percentage of the population does it. You're ignoring opportunity cost, this isn't like recycling where I have nothing to lose by doing it. Until we reach critical mass, the early adopters would have essentially "subsidized" everyone else. A few ounces of meat/fish a day aren't going to cause any of those diseases and are packed with nutrients that a vegan diet has a very hard time providing at a similar cost, especially in poor countries. The Gates foundation isn't betting on chicken on a whim. I still think moderation is the way to go. If everyone cut their intake by 50% we'd have a healthier population, animal slaughter would be cut in half, and we wouldn't have to reinvent meat.
    • lapnitnelav 8y ago
      Not to detract from your point but Nature itself is brutal. There's no mercy kill when a predator catch a prey. Case in point : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpQmJ7UUNFQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fpQmJ7UUNFQ >> Warning, this is not for the faint of heart. << I've worked in a slaughterhouse, doing the night shift cleaning up the mess before a new day begins, I know what's it's like. Overcrowded boxes full of chicken shitting themselves, getting hanged by their legs on a factory line before getting their throat sliced by a fast spinning blade. Not a pretty sight for sure and a sad way to go. It's very unfortunate how the mass consumption of meat creates terrible living conditions for the various animals we breed for that purpose. But if we measure the scale of suffering, I think we're doing a bit better than nature. And yes, by going vegan you do not contribute to that, I get it. I have huge amount of respect for people that live by their moral standards and stick to it. Yet this doesn't mean that the wilderness is some Disney fantasy and yes, for all intent and purpose, most animals out there in the wild are bound to have a gruesome end. I'm not implying that we're doing animals a favour by sending them to a slaughterhouse, simply that this is the natural order of things. If you feel strongly about that and choose to not consume meat and such, great. As for me, despite what I've seen, there's nothing wrong with eating meat. The only thing I wish is a more humane breeding, and I'm happy to pay more for that. I'm aware that it's slightly hypocritical because would there be an alien specie doing the same to us, I'd probably would have a different perspective on that. As it stands, I enjoy being an apex predator. May it last forever.
      • uhtred 8y ago
        There's nothing natural about factory farms, you can pretend that they are no different to a lion eating a gazelle, but they are. We eat way more meat than we naturally should. Ever seen a fat lion dying from heart disease? And what about responsibility that comes with the power humans have over other animals. Lions are just being Lions, they don't understand what death really means, it's just a meal. They also are carnivores, humans are not. They also don't have grocery stores.
• deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
• agumonkey 8y ago
  Our species manage to get away from running after food. Animals do, every life form takes from the environment. The issue is how easy it is to us to breed, slaughter, bag and cook living forms nowaday. But if you were 100000 years ago, you'd have no second thoughts about eating animals.
  • uhtred 8y ago
    100000 years ago humans had significantly less empathy than we do now. And they didn't have a grocery store with more varieties of vegetables, whole grains, beans, lentils, fruits, seeds, nuts, tofu, tempeh, seitan, cashew cheese, veggie burgers, vegan sausages, vegan pizza, vegan chikn, plant based milks... than one could possibly imagine, a short drive or walk from their home.
    • agumonkey 8y ago
      Are you sure it's empathy ? 10000 years ago someone killing an animal knew it was taking a life. I've read once that jewish religion did create kosher rituals because of that (maybe other religions too I didn't dig further). Today it feels more like depression based morality caused by the chaos of the last decades and the glooming collapse than empathy. At least that's how I feel when I see people talking about the subject (but tbh I don't see a lot of that group, mostly some known figure in mainstream medias.. probably not the best speakers). Again, long ago, you had to survive, it was fair game. My cat doesn't refrain from stabbing a mice at night, a cat is highly skilled and potent compared to a mouse.. yet nature balances things out, mice hide, they live their existence. You know if you make it too comfy, a species will diverge and probably harm itself. Stress is part of life. And as humans, even when violently hunting.. I think we knew (pulling that out of my own theorizing arse) that it was a sad but needed act. Now we're in an era where technology, knowledge will remove all these requirements from our lives (say we get synthetic food, etc etc) so we're shifting toward a purer existence. Something where you don't impact nature as much. But it's still early days in a way.
      • LyndsySimon 8y ago
        Interesting that you chose cats as your example, as they are a predator animal that kills for sport. My cats have killed many mice, but I've never seen them consume one - they much prefer their food bowls. Cats are instinctively driven to hunt and kill, even when they have no need or desire for sustenance. They enjoy it.
• joejerryronnie 8y ago
  I love animals. I also love to eat animals. I don’t have any trouble reconciling these two things.
  • uhtred 8y ago
    Then you don't love animals. Or, you are happy for living creatures you love to be killed and to eat them, which is scary.
    • pathseeker 8y ago
      I love plants. The fact that I eat them too does not change that at all.
      • fnovd 8y ago
        It's a bit silly to compare killing a plant to killing something with a central nervous system. Plants don't think or feel. Birds and mammals certainly do.
        • vitorgrs 8y ago
          "However, there is evidence that plants react to damage by emitting chemicals or gases that communicate discomfort or stress and that they somehow adapt to minimize this discomfort."
          • fnovd 8y ago
            Plants don't have a central nervous system that can experience discomfort or stress. The terms are used as an analogy. My laptops emits heat when it is "stressed" as well.
            • SmellyGeekBoy 8y ago
              I'm a backyard beekeeper and I just love bees. They're very intelligent. But you should see how commercial beekeepers treat them in the production of all this "vegan" food.
• airstrike 8y ago
  Because at the end of the day I have to eat and meat is a fantastic source of nutrients, many of which aren't found in a vegan diet like heme-iron.
  • pmarreck 8y ago
    Regarding the heme thing... https://impossiblefoods.com/ https://impossiblefoods.com/ is onto that
    • airstrike 8y ago
      Thanks for linking that. An amazing goal and I wish them the best of luck, but we'll still have numerous other nutrients to engineer after we're done fixing this one issue. Not to mention all the ingredients we'll have to engineer out of a vegan diet like the excess phytic acid (again just naming one example)
  • pmarreck 8y ago
    FWIW I tried their Impossible Burger and it was amazingly spot-on, flavor and looks and texturewise. But you are correct about the other criticisms/concerns about vegan diets in your child comment (I responded to this one because HN apparently limits you to 4 or so levels' deep commenting) EDIT: Now the ability to reply to that one has returned. Not sure why that happened, but whatever... leaving this here
    • erikig 8y ago
      Wait till you try Impossible Burger 2.0...OMG
      • pmarreck 8y ago
        holy shit, this is literally hot off the presses as of 2 days ago. Thanks for the heads-up!! https://medium.com/impossible-foods/how-we-know-youll-like-very-much-the-new-impossible-burger-3d841683cec1 https://medium.com/impossible-foods/how-we-know-youll-like-v...
• pmarreck 8y ago
  Thank you for calling me out on this (admitted) bit of bullshit in me. ;) I guess I am comfortable with my cognitive dissonance in this area. FOR NOW. (But seemingly no other areas. I memorized just about all the informal fallacies mostly so I can Correct People's Bad Thinking On The Internet, sigh...) I'm also waiting for companies like https://impossiblefoods.com/ https://impossiblefoods.com/ to do their thing. I tried their impossible burger, and it was amazingly indistinguishable from the real thing. If they come up with impossible bacon and impossible chicken, I'd definitely be able to pull off vegetarianism or pescatarianism. In the meantime, I unfortunately love my chicken and eggs, milk, cheese, ice cream (all in moderation). Also, although I do eat eggs, I check this site to make sure they're ethically obtained: https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ https://www.cornucopia.org/scorecard/eggs/ And I ONLY buy eggs from the highly-ranked producers. I pay extra for this, of course. Also I think fish/clams/oysters/shellfish are sort of the exception for most people, all signs point to them being only dimly conscious with extremely tiny brains. Given their nutritional value, it's arguably ethical to kill them for food (but not unsustainably to the point of drastic population decrease, which I think we're currently doing with bluefin tuna...) This doesn't include octopi and whales/dolphins and other obviously-intelligent creatures, of course. What is your position on humane painless animal death after living a full life? (given that every being has to die, anyway)? What about lab-grown muscle fiber? Again, I honestly appreciate the fact that you have a low tolerance for hypocrisy/cognitive-dissonance (at least in this area), and I fully admit this is a dissonance I am actively maintaining. I'm... trying to get out of it. Self-honesty turns out to be the most difficult honesty...
  • fnovd 8y ago
    Unfortunately there is a part of our brain that just wants to eat the stuff we're used to eating. It's really hard to change your diet, whether that's to lose weight, to mitigate a disease like diabetes, or to eat with your ethics. From my experience, the most successful way to cut out animal products from your diet is to have a passion for cooking. Trying out a new vegan recipe every week or so will start to build up your repertoire to the point where you're hankering for a dish that just happens to be vegan instead of consciously fighting against your desires.
  • uhtred 8y ago