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> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. Just because you signed a con

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line.

alistairSH 8y ago
Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Chan was sold into servitude while most of were still in primary school. The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Wasn't the contract entered into by his parents? The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s. Was he kept under lock and key by armed guards willing to main or kill him to keep him from escaping? Or did he primarily think of it as working through a contract his parents had signed him up for?
  - Pfhreak 8y ago
    Do the answers to your rhetorical questions matter? Is there any answer to your questions that makes indentured servitude of minors acceptable? I cannot conceive of any answers that would.
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Do the answers to your rhetorical questions matter? As someone who was a child who was sent away to school by his parents, let me tell you that they matter a great deal. (Particularly from the POV of an adult looking back vs. the experiences of a child.) They are precisely the questions that should be asked to distinguish manipulations of "Think of the children!" hysteria and genuine issues of the human rights of minors. Is there any answer to your questions that makes indentured servitude of minors acceptable? Of course not. But I can imagine the level of state power and impingement on private family life needed to prevent that 100%, and that would be quite horrible as well. Government should regulate the conditions under which children are kept and raised by schools. However, the degree to which someone else should decide for parents what to do also needs to take into account the rights of parents and families.
      - phs318u 8y ago
        Your last paragreaph sounds contradictory to me. In order to "regulate conditions", the government must reserve the power to intervene should said conditions fail to meet regulatory minima. Failure to reserve such power automatically neuters any "regulation". There are only two distinct choices - no government power over these conditions and therefore no regulation (in effect, irrespective of contrary claims), or regulation (with government power to intervene). In the latter case there is broad scope for where the threshold for intervention is set and most discussion centers on this. But in all cases, the existence of such a threshold requires government power to intervene.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        In order to "regulate conditions", the government must reserve the power to intervene should said conditions fail to meet regulatory minima. Of course. Read the whole thread as if I think the government should reserve that power. My position is that the government should use such power as sparingly as possible. There are only two distinct choices - no government power over these conditions and therefore no regulation False. There is a "dial" here. The question is how much government should intervene. In that, there are far more than 2 choices.
        phs318u 8y ago
        > My position is that the government should use such power as sparingly as possible. Apologies. I misunderstood and it seems we agree on the fundamental principle that the government should have such power and disagree only on it's extent, as per my other reply to another comment of yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18870396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18870396 > False. There is a "dial" here. Which is exactly what I go on to say in the rest of the sentence you quoted - "...there is broad scope for where the threshold for intervention is set"
  - alistairSH 8y ago
    Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? If so, there's no point debating with you - I find the practice morally reprehensible (and yes, the systems that make such an arrangement in any way palatable are also reprehensible).
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? No one wants children to be sold into servitude. However, the state impinging into family affairs to the point where it can be 100% prevented is essentially making the state the full de-facto guardians of the children. This is the state of affairs where children are informing on their parents to the state. It's in part up to the parents in a case like this, to determine if what they're doing is selling their children out. That should be a matter of relationships within the family. (Government should be supervising how such business treat and house children. It shouldn't be impinging itself on the relationship between parent and child for any but the most extreme circumstances.) If so, there's no point debating with you - I find the practice morally reprehensible Using such debate tactics is dishonest on a few levels. 1) The likelihood that you are talking to someone that reprehensible is rather small 2) The likelihood that you are not exercising the principle of charity and imposing unnecessary emotional toxicity in a nuanced discussion (to your own short-term rhetorical benefit) is rather much larger. and yes, the systems that make such an arrangement in any way palatable are also reprehensible There are and always will be a few horrible people who will do that to their own children. Giving over tremendous power to the state over the intimate affairs of absolutely everyone for the sake of preventing rare instances strikes me as hugely unwise. Imagine what the plight of gay teenagers in the past would have been like in an unfriendly regime of such power, where state power reached into family affairs. (Or the plight of such teenagers in totalitarian theocracies today.)
      - alistairSH 8y ago
        Sorry, I read your initial response as rather glib about a practice that is generally considered wrong. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize. I do understand that the contract was legal. And suspect Chan's parents likely gave it great consideration. Doesn't make the practice, or the circumstances that lead to it, any more palatable to me.
  - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
    Countered question of my own: Do you understand the plight of being an exploited child?
    - stcredzero 8y ago
      Do you understand the plight of being an exploited child? I understand what it's like to be sent away to school by one's parents to experience significant hardship. It's not a matter where one should cry out for more state intervention, lightly.
      - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        This does not answer the question.
        stcredzero 8y ago
        One can always find a singular example of something really horrible, then try to use the emotional energy of that to drive their point home. In most cases, and in this case, there are other issues which you can't disentangle so easily. My reply does indeed answer the question, as to the part of the experience of such a child I could understand. In particular, I was severely abused by a classmate, and felt unable to ask for help. I felt a great many things about my experience, and I know this from my personal experience: The POV of the child is truly paramount. It can turn a voluntary contractual experience of privilege into a horrible coercive one, or something that someone might call "indentured servitude" into something positive. It may well be that what appear to be the exact same circumstances are one thing to one child, and the opposite to another, or that it's remembered as a mix of both. My lived experience tell me this, and in light of that experience, your comments strike me less likely to be a genuine concern for and understanding of those experiences and more as a rhetorical tactic using people's protective feelings towards children.
        SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        I did not ask about abuse. I asked about exploitation. A further question: Are you performing the same rhetorical tactic that you are telling me that I am performing through your anecdote?
stcredzero 8y ago
> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. My own family history has a lot to do with indentured servitude. If you watch Korean historical dramas, you'll find the condition described as being a "servant" but at other times, the same condition will be described as being a "slave." In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how do you draw the line? I went to a boarding school where they didn't let us off school grounds without getting leave. Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line. How about physical coercion? Did 19 year old Jackie Chan consider himself a slave? Was he kept in a place through physical coercion and torture? Did he dream of jailbreaking himself out of his barracks and wire-cutting the fence and running to freedom while being chased by guards prepared to main or shoot him? Or was he thinking of it as working through a contractual debt? The line should be firmly held at physical coercion. As always, there will be people who skirt the lines by coming up with things that have the same effect, but which are "technically not coercion."
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  > In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how do you draw the line? I think minors need to be free to follow the wishes of their parents who are free to exercise authority as guardians. Interfering with that should be a human rights violation. But if the parents wish to send their kids to a boarding school, that has a long history of being a successful way of providing children with an education. If Chan was sold into servitude by his parents, I think that's de facto slavery, you can't sell the personal autonomy of another person, not even your children. > How about physical coercion? Certainly. But there might be trickery involved as well, which should be considered criminal. If I offered you a well-paying job in Dubai, then when you got there told you you were only going to get paid a tenth and further charged you exorbitant rates for food and lodging, that should absolutely be considered trafficking. I don't have all the answers. But certainly there's more to it than what we'd call kidnapping.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    If Chan was sold into servitude by his parents, I think that's de facto slavery What would you think of a boarding school, where there is a meritocratic selection of child candidates from among primarily underprivileged families? The families that are selected receive a payment. The child is housed, schooled, and given rigorous training in a prestigious performance art. Is there something in that which is de-facto slavery? Isn't that a description of the circumstances of Jackie Chan's family? I would agree with you, that there is significant potential in such an arrangement for abuses, but it's not a simple black&white situation for instantly considered condemnation. you can't sell the personal autonomy of another person, not even your children Parents often override the personal autonomy of their children "for their own good." I don't have all the answers. But certainly there's more to it than what we'd call kidnapping. No disagreement.

alistairSH 8y ago

Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Chan was sold into servitude while most of were still in primary school. The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s.

stcredzero 8y ago
Particularly in the case of a minor, who has no say in the contract. Wasn't the contract entered into by his parents? The way I read it, he wasn't able to break free until his early-20s. Was he kept under lock and key by armed guards willing to main or kill him to keep him from escaping? Or did he primarily think of it as working through a contract his parents had signed him up for?
- Pfhreak 8y ago
  Do the answers to your rhetorical questions matter? Is there any answer to your questions that makes indentured servitude of minors acceptable? I cannot conceive of any answers that would.
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Do the answers to your rhetorical questions matter? As someone who was a child who was sent away to school by his parents, let me tell you that they matter a great deal. (Particularly from the POV of an adult looking back vs. the experiences of a child.) They are precisely the questions that should be asked to distinguish manipulations of "Think of the children!" hysteria and genuine issues of the human rights of minors. Is there any answer to your questions that makes indentured servitude of minors acceptable? Of course not. But I can imagine the level of state power and impingement on private family life needed to prevent that 100%, and that would be quite horrible as well. Government should regulate the conditions under which children are kept and raised by schools. However, the degree to which someone else should decide for parents what to do also needs to take into account the rights of parents and families.
    - phs318u 8y ago
      Your last paragreaph sounds contradictory to me. In order to "regulate conditions", the government must reserve the power to intervene should said conditions fail to meet regulatory minima. Failure to reserve such power automatically neuters any "regulation". There are only two distinct choices - no government power over these conditions and therefore no regulation (in effect, irrespective of contrary claims), or regulation (with government power to intervene). In the latter case there is broad scope for where the threshold for intervention is set and most discussion centers on this. But in all cases, the existence of such a threshold requires government power to intervene.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        In order to "regulate conditions", the government must reserve the power to intervene should said conditions fail to meet regulatory minima. Of course. Read the whole thread as if I think the government should reserve that power. My position is that the government should use such power as sparingly as possible. There are only two distinct choices - no government power over these conditions and therefore no regulation False. There is a "dial" here. The question is how much government should intervene. In that, there are far more than 2 choices.
        phs318u 8y ago
        > My position is that the government should use such power as sparingly as possible. Apologies. I misunderstood and it seems we agree on the fundamental principle that the government should have such power and disagree only on it's extent, as per my other reply to another comment of yours: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18870396 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18870396 > False. There is a "dial" here. Which is exactly what I go on to say in the rest of the sentence you quoted - "...there is broad scope for where the threshold for intervention is set"
- alistairSH 8y ago
  Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? If so, there's no point debating with you - I find the practice morally reprehensible (and yes, the systems that make such an arrangement in any way palatable are also reprehensible).
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Are you actually arguing parents should be allowed to self their children into servitude? No one wants children to be sold into servitude. However, the state impinging into family affairs to the point where it can be 100% prevented is essentially making the state the full de-facto guardians of the children. This is the state of affairs where children are informing on their parents to the state. It's in part up to the parents in a case like this, to determine if what they're doing is selling their children out. That should be a matter of relationships within the family. (Government should be supervising how such business treat and house children. It shouldn't be impinging itself on the relationship between parent and child for any but the most extreme circumstances.) If so, there's no point debating with you - I find the practice morally reprehensible Using such debate tactics is dishonest on a few levels. 1) The likelihood that you are talking to someone that reprehensible is rather small 2) The likelihood that you are not exercising the principle of charity and imposing unnecessary emotional toxicity in a nuanced discussion (to your own short-term rhetorical benefit) is rather much larger. and yes, the systems that make such an arrangement in any way palatable are also reprehensible There are and always will be a few horrible people who will do that to their own children. Giving over tremendous power to the state over the intimate affairs of absolutely everyone for the sake of preventing rare instances strikes me as hugely unwise. Imagine what the plight of gay teenagers in the past would have been like in an unfriendly regime of such power, where state power reached into family affairs. (Or the plight of such teenagers in totalitarian theocracies today.)
    - alistairSH 8y ago
      Sorry, I read your initial response as rather glib about a practice that is generally considered wrong. If that wasn't your intention, I apologize. I do understand that the contract was legal. And suspect Chan's parents likely gave it great consideration. Doesn't make the practice, or the circumstances that lead to it, any more palatable to me.
- SolaceQuantum 8y ago
  Countered question of my own: Do you understand the plight of being an exploited child?
  - stcredzero 8y ago
    Do you understand the plight of being an exploited child? I understand what it's like to be sent away to school by one's parents to experience significant hardship. It's not a matter where one should cry out for more state intervention, lightly.
    - SolaceQuantum 8y ago
      This does not answer the question.
      - stcredzero 8y ago
        One can always find a singular example of something really horrible, then try to use the emotional energy of that to drive their point home. In most cases, and in this case, there are other issues which you can't disentangle so easily. My reply does indeed answer the question, as to the part of the experience of such a child I could understand. In particular, I was severely abused by a classmate, and felt unable to ask for help. I felt a great many things about my experience, and I know this from my personal experience: The POV of the child is truly paramount. It can turn a voluntary contractual experience of privilege into a horrible coercive one, or something that someone might call "indentured servitude" into something positive. It may well be that what appear to be the exact same circumstances are one thing to one child, and the opposite to another, or that it's remembered as a mix of both. My lived experience tell me this, and in light of that experience, your comments strike me less likely to be a genuine concern for and understanding of those experiences and more as a rhetorical tactic using people's protective feelings towards children.
        SolaceQuantum 8y ago
        I did not ask about abuse. I asked about exploitation. A further question: Are you performing the same rhetorical tactic that you are telling me that I am performing through your anecdote?

stcredzero 8y ago

> The Hong Kong opera school is described as indentured servitude. Which is considered by many to be a form of human trafficking. My own family history has a lot to do with indentured servitude. If you watch Korean historical dramas, you'll find the condition described as being a "servant" but at other times, the same condition will be described as being a "slave." In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how do you draw the line? I went to a boarding school where they didn't let us off school grounds without getting leave. Just because you signed a contract doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to get out of it. I'm not entirely certain where to draw the line. How about physical coercion? Did 19 year old Jackie Chan consider himself a slave? Was he kept in a place through physical coercion and torture? Did he dream of jailbreaking himself out of his barracks and wire-cutting the fence and running to freedom while being chased by guards prepared to main or shoot him? Or was he thinking of it as working through a contractual debt? The line should be firmly held at physical coercion. As always, there will be people who skirt the lines by coming up with things that have the same effect, but which are "technically not coercion."

vinceguidry 8y ago
> In terms of being signed up as minors, exactly how do you draw the line? I think minors need to be free to follow the wishes of their parents who are free to exercise authority as guardians. Interfering with that should be a human rights violation. But if the parents wish to send their kids to a boarding school, that has a long history of being a successful way of providing children with an education. If Chan was sold into servitude by his parents, I think that's de facto slavery, you can't sell the personal autonomy of another person, not even your children. > How about physical coercion? Certainly. But there might be trickery involved as well, which should be considered criminal. If I offered you a well-paying job in Dubai, then when you got there told you you were only going to get paid a tenth and further charged you exorbitant rates for food and lodging, that should absolutely be considered trafficking. I don't have all the answers. But certainly there's more to it than what we'd call kidnapping.
- stcredzero 8y ago
  If Chan was sold into servitude by his parents, I think that's de facto slavery What would you think of a boarding school, where there is a meritocratic selection of child candidates from among primarily underprivileged families? The families that are selected receive a payment. The child is housed, schooled, and given rigorous training in a prestigious performance art. Is there something in that which is de-facto slavery? Isn't that a description of the circumstances of Jackie Chan's family? I would agree with you, that there is significant potential in such an arrangement for abuses, but it's not a simple black&white situation for instantly considered condemnation. you can't sell the personal autonomy of another person, not even your children Parents often override the personal autonomy of their children "for their own good." I don't have all the answers. But certainly there's more to it than what we'd call kidnapping. No disagreement.