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I think what the previous commenter was reacting to in your post was not your defense of Chan an his memoir as inspirational, per se, but rather the specific ph

I think what the previous commenter was reacting to in your post was not your defense of Chan an his memoir as inspirational, per se, but rather the specific phrase "If he can do it anyone can" as ignoring the fact that Chan -- and celebrities like him -- are extreme outliers, and extremely lucky for their success. Yes, Chan worked his ass off. But to have the success he did, he also had to have an insane amount of luck. Using phrases like that excuses a system that keeps people oppressed by pointing to the outliers who manage to escape them. It's the old "lift yourself up by your bootstraps" argument. We should recognize and change the system, not point people to the outliers and say "See, you can do it too!" Chan's memoir can be inspirational, but we can also read into it - as the article does - and recognize the oppressive system and his luck in escaping it.

vinceguidry 8y ago
This is why I added the daughters and princesses aside. The people of Hong Kong are not going to use Chan's example to try to be Jackie Chan. That's not the point. They're going to look carefully at their hero and decide that certain traits of his, like extreme courage and willingness to be brave, and choose to adopt them, just like a child does with their heroes. If you or I went over to Hong Kong, and told them to work hard and they'll succeed, then get in my private jet and fly back to the US, they'd just roll their eyes. But Jackie Chan is one of them. He understands the culture and the challenges. All famous people do for their audiences.
- AchieveLife 8y ago
  Hey Vince I think we agree with you regarding the inspiration that Chan brings to his people. There is more than inspiration, sweat, tears, and blood that plays the part of viral success as Chan has achieved. Luck and opportunity are the missing pieces. The phrase "if Chan can do it then anyone can" is victim to survivorship bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias) To conclude: Chan achieved awesome things, he's an inspiration, it's good for others to strive for success, success is not determined on hard work alone.
  - baxtr 8y ago
    Oh man, I wish more comments started like yours. “Hey Vince” sounds nice and respectful, and, even personal on an anonymous platform
  - vinceguidry 8y ago
    Hi. I'll admit to getting a bit frustrated because I seem to need to repeat the same point over and over again, and the responses aren't addressing the point made. Yes, you need luck and opportunity to become Jackie Chan. But there's more ways to be successful than becoming Jackie Chan. He can inspire them to be themselves and not let their situations get them down. That's what is meant by "anyone can do it." Not anyone can be Jackie Chan. But anybody can use the same inner tools that Chan did that got him famous, and chart the course of their own life. That's what's inspirational.
    - yawaramin 8y ago
      > But anybody can use the same inner tools that Chan did that got him famous, What inner tools were those? From the article, it seems that it was a willingness to do extreme, mortally-dangerous stunts? Is that the lesson people should take away–forget about being successful unless you're willing to constantly put your life on the line?
      - vinceguidry 8y ago
        > it was a willingness to do extreme, mortally-dangerous stunts? Something like that. It's up to you what you want to take from it. But inspiration is such that you might not be inspired to follow the example directly, but you can use the example to find some other kind of courage to display. For example, your company may need someone to do some really dirty task that no one wants to do. If you step up to the plate, that creates an opening for something greater to happen.
        yawaramin 8y ago
        At this point, the 'inspirational' aspect of Jackie Chan being talked about so far in this thread, is watered down to a generic 'he had the courage to do something scary'. I mean, you can say the same thing about Kim Kardashian's photo shoot that 'broke the internet', but I doubt most commenters here would hold her up as an inspirational example.
geggam 8y ago
This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" I suppose it is easier to write and also easier to dismiss other people doing something you simply don't want to put in the effort to do so or are too scared to do. of course this is just my observation
- darkarmani 8y ago
  > This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" So your observation is that because they seized the opportunity and did what it takes to succeed means luck wasn't involved?
  - geggam 8y ago
    I mean luck seems to mean "something that person did that others seem reluctant or incapable of doing"
- smacktoward 8y ago
  > This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" Of course you do, that's called survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias You see the one person who tried to seize the opportunity and succeeded, because by succeeding they became famous. You don't see all the people who tried just as hard to seize the opportunity and failed, because by failing they remained obscure.
  - nvusuvu 8y ago
    How many tried just as hard to seize the opportunity?
    - kelnos 8y ago
ethbro 8y ago
The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. Heroes have a place, precisely because they inspire. I get what you're saying, but in any system having an aspirational role model is a benefit!
- throwawaymath 8y ago
  > The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. I'm deeply skeptical of this. I don't want to assume your background, so please don't take offense to this. But I can only imagine someone is able to seriously believe this if they've never had anything more challenging than their own self-actualization and ambition. You can (and should) believe in yourself as fiercely as you'd like! But the blunt reality is that hunger, poverty, disease and a lack of familial support structure will break you down unless you're astronomically lucky. If the most difficult thing stopping you from achieving your goals is your own belief in your ability to do it, you're in an exceptionally privileged position. I think we miss the forest for the trees on HN quite a lot. The modal commenter here is most likely to be affluent with respect to their local environment and wealthy with respect to the world. We don't often have people commenting here to share experiences of the real obstacles someone like Jackie Chan had to deal with growing up.
  - ethbro 8y ago
    I would argue the opposite (that self-belief is the hardest challenge in those in objectively bad circumstances), precisely because of what you phrase as '[these things] will break you down unless you're astronomically lucky.' The manner in which they break most people down is by circumscribing ambition and self confidence. A large part of my family goes into the hills of dirt poor mining Appalachia, so I wouldn't say I'm speaking to this from a privileged position. When no one in your family has ever gone to college, why would you even think you could? Or have a different profession than your father? Or start a business? Or move to another town? Etc. etc. There are certainly structural roadblocks that make things easier or harder, but I have yet to see someone succeed in something they never start. And a large reason they never start is because they don't believe they could ever succeed. And that was my point. That heroes help us dare to believe, moreso that we otherwise would.

vinceguidry 8y ago

This is why I added the daughters and princesses aside. The people of Hong Kong are not going to use Chan's example to try to be Jackie Chan. That's not the point. They're going to look carefully at their hero and decide that certain traits of his, like extreme courage and willingness to be brave, and choose to adopt them, just like a child does with their heroes. If you or I went over to Hong Kong, and told them to work hard and they'll succeed, then get in my private jet and fly back to the US, they'd just roll their eyes. But Jackie Chan is one of them. He understands the culture and the challenges. All famous people do for their audiences.

AchieveLife 8y ago
Hey Vince I think we agree with you regarding the inspiration that Chan brings to his people. There is more than inspiration, sweat, tears, and blood that plays the part of viral success as Chan has achieved. Luck and opportunity are the missing pieces. The phrase "if Chan can do it then anyone can" is victim to survivorship bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias) To conclude: Chan achieved awesome things, he's an inspiration, it's good for others to strive for success, success is not determined on hard work alone.
- baxtr 8y ago
  Oh man, I wish more comments started like yours. “Hey Vince” sounds nice and respectful, and, even personal on an anonymous platform
- vinceguidry 8y ago
  Hi. I'll admit to getting a bit frustrated because I seem to need to repeat the same point over and over again, and the responses aren't addressing the point made. Yes, you need luck and opportunity to become Jackie Chan. But there's more ways to be successful than becoming Jackie Chan. He can inspire them to be themselves and not let their situations get them down. That's what is meant by "anyone can do it." Not anyone can be Jackie Chan. But anybody can use the same inner tools that Chan did that got him famous, and chart the course of their own life. That's what's inspirational.
  - yawaramin 8y ago
    > But anybody can use the same inner tools that Chan did that got him famous, What inner tools were those? From the article, it seems that it was a willingness to do extreme, mortally-dangerous stunts? Is that the lesson people should take away–forget about being successful unless you're willing to constantly put your life on the line?
    - vinceguidry 8y ago
      > it was a willingness to do extreme, mortally-dangerous stunts? Something like that. It's up to you what you want to take from it. But inspiration is such that you might not be inspired to follow the example directly, but you can use the example to find some other kind of courage to display. For example, your company may need someone to do some really dirty task that no one wants to do. If you step up to the plate, that creates an opening for something greater to happen.
      - yawaramin 8y ago
        At this point, the 'inspirational' aspect of Jackie Chan being talked about so far in this thread, is watered down to a generic 'he had the courage to do something scary'. I mean, you can say the same thing about Kim Kardashian's photo shoot that 'broke the internet', but I doubt most commenters here would hold her up as an inspirational example.

geggam 8y ago

This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" I suppose it is easier to write and also easier to dismiss other people doing something you simply don't want to put in the effort to do so or are too scared to do. of course this is just my observation

darkarmani 8y ago
> This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" So your observation is that because they seized the opportunity and did what it takes to succeed means luck wasn't involved?
- geggam 8y ago
  I mean luck seems to mean "something that person did that others seem reluctant or incapable of doing"
smacktoward 8y ago
> This word "luck" is used quite often yet every time I see it applied it there is always someone who "seizes opportunity when it comes and does what it takes to succeed" Of course you do, that's called survivorship bias: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survivorship_bias You see the one person who tried to seize the opportunity and succeeded, because by succeeding they became famous. You don't see all the people who tried just as hard to seize the opportunity and failed, because by failing they remained obscure.
- nvusuvu 8y ago
  How many tried just as hard to seize the opportunity?
  - kelnos 8y ago

ethbro 8y ago

The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. Heroes have a place, precisely because they inspire. I get what you're saying, but in any system having an aspirational role model is a benefit!

throwawaymath 8y ago
> The greatest challenge to overcome is disbelief that you can do something. I'm deeply skeptical of this. I don't want to assume your background, so please don't take offense to this. But I can only imagine someone is able to seriously believe this if they've never had anything more challenging than their own self-actualization and ambition. You can (and should) believe in yourself as fiercely as you'd like! But the blunt reality is that hunger, poverty, disease and a lack of familial support structure will break you down unless you're astronomically lucky. If the most difficult thing stopping you from achieving your goals is your own belief in your ability to do it, you're in an exceptionally privileged position. I think we miss the forest for the trees on HN quite a lot. The modal commenter here is most likely to be affluent with respect to their local environment and wealthy with respect to the world. We don't often have people commenting here to share experiences of the real obstacles someone like Jackie Chan had to deal with growing up.
- ethbro 8y ago
  I would argue the opposite (that self-belief is the hardest challenge in those in objectively bad circumstances), precisely because of what you phrase as '[these things] will break you down unless you're astronomically lucky.' The manner in which they break most people down is by circumscribing ambition and self confidence. A large part of my family goes into the hills of dirt poor mining Appalachia, so I wouldn't say I'm speaking to this from a privileged position. When no one in your family has ever gone to college, why would you even think you could? Or have a different profession than your father? Or start a business? Or move to another town? Etc. etc. There are certainly structural roadblocks that make things easier or harder, but I have yet to see someone succeed in something they never start. And a large reason they never start is because they don't believe they could ever succeed. And that was my point. That heroes help us dare to believe, moreso that we otherwise would.