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That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard. Google Drive, Gmail, G

That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard. Google Drive, Gmail, Google Photos, Play Music, Play Movies, Play Games, Play Books, Duo, Google+, and YouTube could all be called as crapware since they aren't required for core phone functions (and upsell for-profit services). I guess it is somewhat a discussion what we mean by "crapware." But I'd argue most reasonable definitions include at least some of Google's pre-installed apps.

rglullis 8y ago
Not defending Google's practices, but there is no double standard here. Apple's apps are also not removable in the iPhone.
- javagram 8y ago
  Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted. I just deleted the built in Mail app from my iPhone and it worked fine.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    > Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted. The app is deleted, but the frameworks and system assets it relies on are not.
- BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
  Actually, most of them are removable! Only a few apps that are deeply tied to the system (Settings, Photos, App Store, Clock, Messages, etc) can’t be deleted, but you can remove Maps, Weather, Music, Calculator, etc.
JoshTriplett 8y ago
You can remove all of the Google apps, though. (You can't remove the storage space they take up on the phone's ROM, as they ship on the stock device so that they don't need a download at setup time, but you can completely disable them so that they're treated as not installed.) Also, these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions; frankly, many people use them more often than they make phonecalls. (Personally, I disable around half of those apps, along with Chrome.)
- ptero 8y ago
  > these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions Yes, which is why I want full freedom to choose clients and apps that would be doing this on my phone.
simulate 8y ago
This is identical to how all other phone OS vendors work where the OS vendor pre-installs apps as part of their ecosystem. If you consider them crapware, then there are no major mobile OS vendors who don't install crapware. iPhone preinstalls 42 apps, not all of which can be easily deleted: App Store, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Clock, Compass, Contacts, FaceTime, Files, Find My Friends, Find My iPhone, Game Center, Health, Home, iBooks, iCloud Drive, iMovie, iTunes Store, iTunes U, Keynote, Mail, Maps, Messages, Music, News, Notes, Numbers, Pages, Passbook, Phone, Photos, Podcasts, Reminders, Safari, Settings, Stocks, Tips, TV, Videos, Voice Memos, Wallet, Watch, Weather Android comes with 29 preinstalled apps, and like iPhone some of them cannot be easily deleted: Android Pay, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Chrome, Clock, Contacts, Docs, Downloads, Drive, Duo, Gmail, Google, Google+, Keep, Maps, Messages, News & Weather, Phone, Photos, Play Books, Play Games, Play Movies & TV, Play Music, Play Store, Settings, Sheets, Slides, YouTube
- sfotm 8y ago
  iPhones now let you uninstall almost all of those. I know Safari and the App Store are two of the rare exceptions.
  - gregknicholson 8y ago
    How very generous of them! Not getting at you personally here :) just... it's astonishing how quickly we've gotten used to the idea that you'll pay hundreds of dollars for a licence to use a device that you're not really in control of.
    - ghettoimp 8y ago
      Hyperbole... You see a lack of control over your own device. I see someone else managing my device for me so that I don't have to think about it. You see the app store locking you in. I see it protecting me from malware and keeping me secure. I know you're right and I should care more. You can appreciate how nice it would be to just let someone else figure it all out and take care of it for you. "A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." - Thoreau
jrockway 8y ago
I mean... then Apple bundles crapware too. iTunes Store, Pages, Weather, Find Friends, and a bunch of other stuff that I put in a folder inside a folder and promptly forgot about when I got my first iPhone.
- gbear605 8y ago
  Those are all deleteable since iOS 11
neya 8y ago
> That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard. I need to clarify - I'm not an Apple hater, I own an iPhone, 2 iPads, 2 Macbook Pros and a Mac Mini at the time of this comment. But, this same logic can be applied to Apple as well. For example, I don't use Apple's photos app at all. And I can't delete it. There is absolutely no way to even replace it. The same logic applies to Apple's crappy music app as well. I use Spotify 100% of the time. Not to mention the constant push to upgrade to Apple music on a system default app is unacceptable. The photos app isn't crucial to my iPad's core functions. Yet I get constantly harassed with upgrade to iCloud bullshit constantly. Same thing goes with App Store as well, which has no way to turn off upgrade notifications. This is even true of Mac OS X as well, where I get notified constantly to upgrade to Mojave when I have no plans to do so...so that Apple can make my system slower and force me to upgrade my otherwise perfectly functional Mac. It's not like they haven't done this in the past, so...that's the real double standard I would argue.
- iscrewyou 8y ago
  You can remove most of the non-essential apps like Music, iTunes Store, Maps, News. I consider Photos and essential app to the phone. But the push to iCloud could be annoying (I haven’t experienced it because I already have it). If I remember correctly, android phones come with a Gallery App for Photos and then additionally Google Photos. This was a few years ago, I’m not sure if it has changed. Whereas iPhones come with Photos and the iCloud functionality built in.
  - madeofpalk 8y ago
    Well, no, you can just hide the icon on the screen. That’s all that does, just like how you can ‘disable’ Facebook on the Samsung phones.
    - rahoulb 8y ago
      There are functional differences on iOS. For example if you “delete” Apple Music, Siri loses the ability to tell you what song is playing on Spotify (although I haven’t tried it since the original option to delete was added)
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
soperj 8y ago
Where does Siri fit in with your model there?
fanzhang 8y ago
I disagree with a definition of crapware that emphasizes the inability to remove, rather than the clear crappyness. I would call the first mandatoryware. To me, crapware is: - Order of magnitude bad engineering by industry standards (esp if it is not customer centric). - So bad that if it could be removed, a majority of people who know how would remove it immediately. - So bad that if [FANG / anyone competent at software] designed an alternative, most people would switch to it. Crapware for me is not identically equivalent to mandatoryware. I get the GNU-like hate for mandatoryware from some people, but it's useful to have a distinction between (potentially subpar) mandatoryware like IE in Windows XP, and the absolute rubbish that was Verizon Music Store on my 2005 flip phone.

rglullis 8y ago

Not defending Google's practices, but there is no double standard here. Apple's apps are also not removable in the iPhone.

javagram 8y ago
Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted. I just deleted the built in Mail app from my iPhone and it worked fine.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted. The app is deleted, but the frameworks and system assets it relies on are not.
BurritoAlPastor 8y ago
Actually, most of them are removable! Only a few apps that are deeply tied to the system (Settings, Photos, App Store, Clock, Messages, etc) can’t be deleted, but you can remove Maps, Weather, Music, Calculator, etc.

JoshTriplett 8y ago

You can remove all of the Google apps, though. (You can't remove the storage space they take up on the phone's ROM, as they ship on the stock device so that they don't need a download at setup time, but you can completely disable them so that they're treated as not installed.) Also, these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions; frankly, many people use them more often than they make phonecalls. (Personally, I disable around half of those apps, along with Chrome.)

ptero 8y ago
> these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions Yes, which is why I want full freedom to choose clients and apps that would be doing this on my phone.

simulate 8y ago

This is identical to how all other phone OS vendors work where the OS vendor pre-installs apps as part of their ecosystem. If you consider them crapware, then there are no major mobile OS vendors who don't install crapware. iPhone preinstalls 42 apps, not all of which can be easily deleted: App Store, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Clock, Compass, Contacts, FaceTime, Files, Find My Friends, Find My iPhone, Game Center, Health, Home, iBooks, iCloud Drive, iMovie, iTunes Store, iTunes U, Keynote, Mail, Maps, Messages, Music, News, Notes, Numbers, Pages, Passbook, Phone, Photos, Podcasts, Reminders, Safari, Settings, Stocks, Tips, TV, Videos, Voice Memos, Wallet, Watch, Weather Android comes with 29 preinstalled apps, and like iPhone some of them cannot be easily deleted: Android Pay, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Chrome, Clock, Contacts, Docs, Downloads, Drive, Duo, Gmail, Google, Google+, Keep, Maps, Messages, News & Weather, Phone, Photos, Play Books, Play Games, Play Movies & TV, Play Music, Play Store, Settings, Sheets, Slides, YouTube

sfotm 8y ago
iPhones now let you uninstall almost all of those. I know Safari and the App Store are two of the rare exceptions.
- gregknicholson 8y ago
  How very generous of them! Not getting at you personally here :) just... it's astonishing how quickly we've gotten used to the idea that you'll pay hundreds of dollars for a licence to use a device that you're not really in control of.
  - ghettoimp 8y ago
    Hyperbole... You see a lack of control over your own device. I see someone else managing my device for me so that I don't have to think about it. You see the app store locking you in. I see it protecting me from malware and keeping me secure. I know you're right and I should care more. You can appreciate how nice it would be to just let someone else figure it all out and take care of it for you. "A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." - Thoreau

jrockway 8y ago

I mean... then Apple bundles crapware too. iTunes Store, Pages, Weather, Find Friends, and a bunch of other stuff that I put in a folder inside a folder and promptly forgot about when I got my first iPhone.

gbear605 8y ago
Those are all deleteable since iOS 11

neya 8y ago

> That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard. I need to clarify - I'm not an Apple hater, I own an iPhone, 2 iPads, 2 Macbook Pros and a Mac Mini at the time of this comment. But, this same logic can be applied to Apple as well. For example, I don't use Apple's photos app at all. And I can't delete it. There is absolutely no way to even replace it. The same logic applies to Apple's crappy music app as well. I use Spotify 100% of the time. Not to mention the constant push to upgrade to Apple music on a system default app is unacceptable. The photos app isn't crucial to my iPad's core functions. Yet I get constantly harassed with upgrade to iCloud bullshit constantly. Same thing goes with App Store as well, which has no way to turn off upgrade notifications. This is even true of Mac OS X as well, where I get notified constantly to upgrade to Mojave when I have no plans to do so...so that Apple can make my system slower and force me to upgrade my otherwise perfectly functional Mac. It's not like they haven't done this in the past, so...that's the real double standard I would argue.

iscrewyou 8y ago
You can remove most of the non-essential apps like Music, iTunes Store, Maps, News. I consider Photos and essential app to the phone. But the push to iCloud could be annoying (I haven’t experienced it because I already have it). If I remember correctly, android phones come with a Gallery App for Photos and then additionally Google Photos. This was a few years ago, I’m not sure if it has changed. Whereas iPhones come with Photos and the iCloud functionality built in.
- madeofpalk 8y ago
  Well, no, you can just hide the icon on the screen. That’s all that does, just like how you can ‘disable’ Facebook on the Samsung phones.
  - rahoulb 8y ago
    There are functional differences on iOS. For example if you “delete” Apple Music, Siri loses the ability to tell you what song is playing on Spotify (although I haven’t tried it since the original option to delete was added)

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

soperj 8y ago

Where does Siri fit in with your model there?

fanzhang 8y ago

I disagree with a definition of crapware that emphasizes the inability to remove, rather than the clear crappyness. I would call the first mandatoryware. To me, crapware is: - Order of magnitude bad engineering by industry standards (esp if it is not customer centric). - So bad that if it could be removed, a majority of people who know how would remove it immediately. - So bad that if [FANG / anyone competent at software] designed an alternative, most people would switch to it. Crapware for me is not identically equivalent to mandatoryware. I get the GNU-like hate for mandatoryware from some people, but it's useful to have a distinction between (potentially subpar) mandatoryware like IE in Windows XP, and the absolute rubbish that was Verizon Music Store on my 2005 flip phone.