6 ms·

>is unlikely to happen due to political pressures from the elites, whose family's positions are secured by the higher barrier to entry to becoming an intellectu

by knolax 8y ago

>is unlikely to happen due to political pressures from the elites, whose family's positions are secured by the higher barrier to entry to becoming an intellectual. I'm sorry but this is veering into the realm of conspiracy. If you actually talk to any Chinese people you'll realize that most are very opposed to the Latinization of the writing system. In fact the "elites" you speak of were themselves the ones most interested in simplifying the writing system and possibly adopting the Latin alphabet. Their former attempt, simplified Chinese, is often met with rancor in modern day Taiwan and Hongkong, whereas the latter attempt is often tauted in China as an example of CCP backed globalization gone too far.

digianarchist 8y ago
Pinyin or Bopomofo [0] doesn't really matter what symbols are used. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo
- knolax 8y ago
  The anger isn't towards Pinyin specifically, but towards attempts to switch the writing system to phonetic writing. Pinyin is still taught in schools today starting from preschool. Most of the current generation of Chinese people are familiar with both and the common sentiment is that truly phonetic writing systems aren't practical, and that CCP attempts to use Pinyin as a "real" writing system were misguided and yet another example of the government trying to destroy Chinese culture.
  - digianarchist 8y ago
    > "If you actually talk to any Chinese people you'll realize that most are very opposed to the Latinization of the writing system." Bopomofo isn't Latin characters...
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - knolax 8y ago
      But it's still phonetic.
  - Koshkin 8y ago
    I wonder if there's something about Chinese language that makes phonetic writing somehow less suitable for it. What about a possibility of a syllabic system?
    - intopieces 8y ago
      Yes, that something is homophony. Mandarin has 1522 syllables when you include tone (413 syllables without). [0] English has 15,831. [1] [0] https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/14596/how-many-syllables-does-chinese-have https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/14596/how-many-s... [1] http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Syllables/index.txt http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Syllables/inde... [via wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20091115065840/http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Syllables/index.txt https://web.archive.org/web/20091115065840/http://semarch.li...]
    - yorwba 8y ago
      The problem isn't Chinese in general, but the written register of Chinese specifically, and all the texts already using it. If you've ever looked at a verbatim transcript of a spontaneous conversation, you'll probably have noticed how much of an incoherent mess spoken language can be. Written speech is much tidier, because people have the opportunity to be very deliberate in what they write down. For Chinese in particular, that means that people can be much more succinct in writing than orally, because the characters provide additional disambiguation beyond just indicating the pronunciation. Any purely phonetic writing system would require everyone to readjust their standard of what kind of sentences are comprehensible.
    - FabHK 8y ago
      DeFrancis book The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy is excellent on that and many related questions [1]. First, Mandarin has no inflection (love/loves), which allows for writing in characters in the first place. Then, Mandarin has a fairly impoverished phonetic system, allowing for only about 400 different syllables ignoring tones, or 1200 or so when distinguishing tones (while English for example has some 7000 or so, without tones). This leads to many homophones, which can be distinguished by being written with different characters. Or so the traditional justification goes (I don't think much of that argument, because clearly people can speak to each other just fine, without having to clarify which word they mean - disambiguation happens by longer words (two or more syllables), which you could just write down. What happens is that in writing, you only need to write parts of a word: spoken out loud it would be ambiguous, but the chosen character disambiguates it, and thus people conclude that writing wouldn't work without the characters.) However, arguably it's just a matter of habit (and resistance on the part of those that have already put in the time and effort to learn the characters). There are, in fact, Sinitic languages written alphabetically, eg Dungan [2]. The whole issue is very politicised, as you can see with the animated discussion here and the vigorous resistance to the initial comment (which was a bit unfortunately phrased, in my view, but fundamentally sound: Chinese is a very hard language to learn, mostly by virtue of its archaic writing system, and that is arguably somewhat deliberate.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Language:_Fact_and_Fantasy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Language:_Fact_and... [2] see the articles linked from here: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=40417 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=40417
z2 8y ago
Yes, and in between the former and latter, there was also a short-lived attempt to simplify characters further [0]. It failed, perhaps because it was completely contrived, whereas the first simplification adopted many existing cursive/shorthand conventions of the time. Unofficial conventions are easier to adopt, and Japan's independent Kanji simplification scheme actually ended up with some of the same exact (simplified) characters (e.g. 與→与, 學→学, 國→国). 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_round_of_simplified_Chinese_characters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_round_of_simplified_Chi...
- house_atr 8y ago
  It should be called Phoenicianization as you know.. That's where the concept of an alphabet and linear writing system comes from.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    Writing has been invented several times independently, and AFAIK every culture that invented it made the jump to more phonetic writing (alphabetic/syllabic), at least partially, except China (well, maybe Indus valley).
    - house_atr 8y ago
      Nope, earliest invention of the Alphabet, is by Phoenicians. "Partially made the jump" is a weasel answer. What does it mean? How does that challenge the fact that Phoenicians were there first to develop then spread a new writing system? Only you really know I suspect and I suspect also any future answers coming from you will have equally vague claims of someone else "maybe" "possibly" "somewhat" "in a way" "kinda partially" did the same thing but when and was it before the Phoenicians and was it exactly a writing system with a universal alphabet developed well enough to be widely adopted, who knows. Weasel arguers rarely give specifics.
    - chillacy 8y ago
      How many cultures independently invented writing? By most accounts it’s either 3 or 4 times. English comes from a long family of alphabet writers, all the way back to Sumerian writing.
Koshkin 8y ago
> Latinization It's been always puzzling to me why borrowing Latin alphabet is usually considered today the only option. Many languages have phonetic alphabets of their own. Why is it that in the past people had no issue creating an original alphabet well suited for the language, and now the choice is between some bastardized form of Latin on the one hand and sticking to the inconvenient archaic writing system (however beautiful it looks) on the other.
- kazinator 8y ago
  It's English that has the bastardized Latin! Things like "ough" for /a:f/, and vowel shifts whereby /a/ gets written "u". Compared to that, some languages have sane Latinization. Since English is so pervasive, people round the world can look at it and feel good about their own Latinization.
- tivert 8y ago
  > It's been always puzzling to me why borrowing Latin alphabet is usually considered today the only option. Many languages have phonetic alphabets of their own. The Latin alphabet is the most popular phonetic alphabet, and keyboards (and formerly typewriters) for it are widely available. Not so for many of the others. I can see that being a major motivation for Latinization, especially for smaller languages.
- knolax 8y ago
  The argument that Chinese writing has to be made phonetic because Chinese is too hard only holds sway to non-Chinese. Most Chinese people do not consider Chinese writing to be too hard. Therefore the most common argument for phonetic writing is compatibility with international standards. As of now the Latin alphabet is the international standard.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    > only holds sway to non-Chinese. Well, I'd say it holds sway to learners that a) know a better system, and b) learn as adults. Both factors allow them to form a better judgment than kids that don't know any better.

by knolax 8y ago

digianarchist 8y ago

Pinyin or Bopomofo [0] doesn't really matter what symbols are used. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bopomofo

knolax 8y ago
The anger isn't towards Pinyin specifically, but towards attempts to switch the writing system to phonetic writing. Pinyin is still taught in schools today starting from preschool. Most of the current generation of Chinese people are familiar with both and the common sentiment is that truly phonetic writing systems aren't practical, and that CCP attempts to use Pinyin as a "real" writing system were misguided and yet another example of the government trying to destroy Chinese culture.
- digianarchist 8y ago
  > "If you actually talk to any Chinese people you'll realize that most are very opposed to the Latinization of the writing system." Bopomofo isn't Latin characters...
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - knolax 8y ago
    But it's still phonetic.
- Koshkin 8y ago
  I wonder if there's something about Chinese language that makes phonetic writing somehow less suitable for it. What about a possibility of a syllabic system?
  - intopieces 8y ago
    Yes, that something is homophony. Mandarin has 1522 syllables when you include tone (413 syllables without). [0] English has 15,831. [1] [0] https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/14596/how-many-syllables-does-chinese-have https://chinese.stackexchange.com/questions/14596/how-many-s... [1] http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Syllables/index.txt http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Syllables/inde... [via wayback: https://web.archive.org/web/20091115065840/http://semarch.linguistics.fas.nyu.edu/barker/Syllables/index.txt https://web.archive.org/web/20091115065840/http://semarch.li...]
  - yorwba 8y ago
    The problem isn't Chinese in general, but the written register of Chinese specifically, and all the texts already using it. If you've ever looked at a verbatim transcript of a spontaneous conversation, you'll probably have noticed how much of an incoherent mess spoken language can be. Written speech is much tidier, because people have the opportunity to be very deliberate in what they write down. For Chinese in particular, that means that people can be much more succinct in writing than orally, because the characters provide additional disambiguation beyond just indicating the pronunciation. Any purely phonetic writing system would require everyone to readjust their standard of what kind of sentences are comprehensible.
  - FabHK 8y ago
    DeFrancis book The Chinese Language: Fact and Fantasy is excellent on that and many related questions [1]. First, Mandarin has no inflection (love/loves), which allows for writing in characters in the first place. Then, Mandarin has a fairly impoverished phonetic system, allowing for only about 400 different syllables ignoring tones, or 1200 or so when distinguishing tones (while English for example has some 7000 or so, without tones). This leads to many homophones, which can be distinguished by being written with different characters. Or so the traditional justification goes (I don't think much of that argument, because clearly people can speak to each other just fine, without having to clarify which word they mean - disambiguation happens by longer words (two or more syllables), which you could just write down. What happens is that in writing, you only need to write parts of a word: spoken out loud it would be ambiguous, but the chosen character disambiguates it, and thus people conclude that writing wouldn't work without the characters.) However, arguably it's just a matter of habit (and resistance on the part of those that have already put in the time and effort to learn the characters). There are, in fact, Sinitic languages written alphabetically, eg Dungan [2]. The whole issue is very politicised, as you can see with the animated discussion here and the vigorous resistance to the initial comment (which was a bit unfortunately phrased, in my view, but fundamentally sound: Chinese is a very hard language to learn, mostly by virtue of its archaic writing system, and that is arguably somewhat deliberate.) [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Language:_Fact_and_Fantasy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Chinese_Language:_Fact_and... [2] see the articles linked from here: http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=40417 http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=40417

z2 8y ago

Yes, and in between the former and latter, there was also a short-lived attempt to simplify characters further [0]. It failed, perhaps because it was completely contrived, whereas the first simplification adopted many existing cursive/shorthand conventions of the time. Unofficial conventions are easier to adopt, and Japan's independent Kanji simplification scheme actually ended up with some of the same exact (simplified) characters (e.g. 與→与, 學→学, 國→国). 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_round_of_simplified_Chinese_characters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_round_of_simplified_Chi...

house_atr 8y ago
It should be called Phoenicianization as you know.. That's where the concept of an alphabet and linear writing system comes from.
- FabHK 8y ago
  Writing has been invented several times independently, and AFAIK every culture that invented it made the jump to more phonetic writing (alphabetic/syllabic), at least partially, except China (well, maybe Indus valley).
  - house_atr 8y ago
    Nope, earliest invention of the Alphabet, is by Phoenicians. "Partially made the jump" is a weasel answer. What does it mean? How does that challenge the fact that Phoenicians were there first to develop then spread a new writing system? Only you really know I suspect and I suspect also any future answers coming from you will have equally vague claims of someone else "maybe" "possibly" "somewhat" "in a way" "kinda partially" did the same thing but when and was it before the Phoenicians and was it exactly a writing system with a universal alphabet developed well enough to be widely adopted, who knows. Weasel arguers rarely give specifics.
  - chillacy 8y ago
    How many cultures independently invented writing? By most accounts it’s either 3 or 4 times. English comes from a long family of alphabet writers, all the way back to Sumerian writing.

Koshkin 8y ago

> Latinization It's been always puzzling to me why borrowing Latin alphabet is usually considered today the only option. Many languages have phonetic alphabets of their own. Why is it that in the past people had no issue creating an original alphabet well suited for the language, and now the choice is between some bastardized form of Latin on the one hand and sticking to the inconvenient archaic writing system (however beautiful it looks) on the other.

kazinator 8y ago
It's English that has the bastardized Latin! Things like "ough" for /a:f/, and vowel shifts whereby /a/ gets written "u". Compared to that, some languages have sane Latinization. Since English is so pervasive, people round the world can look at it and feel good about their own Latinization.
tivert 8y ago
> It's been always puzzling to me why borrowing Latin alphabet is usually considered today the only option. Many languages have phonetic alphabets of their own. The Latin alphabet is the most popular phonetic alphabet, and keyboards (and formerly typewriters) for it are widely available. Not so for many of the others. I can see that being a major motivation for Latinization, especially for smaller languages.
knolax 8y ago
The argument that Chinese writing has to be made phonetic because Chinese is too hard only holds sway to non-Chinese. Most Chinese people do not consider Chinese writing to be too hard. Therefore the most common argument for phonetic writing is compatibility with international standards. As of now the Latin alphabet is the international standard.
- FabHK 8y ago
  > only holds sway to non-Chinese. Well, I'd say it holds sway to learners that a) know a better system, and b) learn as adults. Both factors allow them to form a better judgment than kids that don't know any better.