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I've never been the maintainer of a widely successful project, and I have troubles imagining how this can "ruin your life". And I'm not naive or anything, I kn

by dudul 8y ago

I've never been the maintainer of a widely successful project, and I have troubles imagining how this can "ruin your life". And I'm not naive or anything, I know people can be real POS on Twitter, GitHub issues, etc. But is it really difficult to just say (or at least, think) "fuck off" and ignore them? I'm not trying to troll or anything, I'm genuinely curious and would love for somebody who's experienced this to share a little bit how you can get so dragged into it that you literally lose sleep over something like that. What's the thought process that makes you eventually believe that you owe these people anything? Edit: Damn, wasn't expecting such a harsh downvote for trying to understand what goes through a high profile maintainer's head. I guess everybody is expected to just naturally know and understand what it feels like :) Next time, I'll keep my curiosity to myself.

jakobegger 8y ago
People come and tell you that you are doing things wrong. You think about what they said, start to doubt yourself, wonder if you are indeed wrong, decide that you are not wrong, tell the person your decision, and feel exhausted. Then the next person shows up to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It's not an issue when it just happens occasionally. But it is an issue when it keeps happening again and again. The worst people are the really argumentative people, those who don't stop trying to convince you. You tell them no, and they come up with yet another argument. And they try to make you feel bad for ignoring your audience or something. Most decisions are somewhat subjective, so no matter what you decide someone is going to complain. And you don't want to ignore those people, since they use your product after all. But it's just so tiring...
fundamental 8y ago
If you're deeply involved in open source, then odds are it's in part because you find the process enjoyable. It can take a lot of time to have built up a project. It takes a large amount of dedication to encourage community members and try to help others have an organized effort. In the end it's easy to put a lot of value in having everything working well. If you get a crowd that over the years is harshly negative towards you as an individual, situations where there are many forks which attacks your ability to help the community by fracturing it, or other toxic behavior, then it saps the fun out of things. If there are enough people that drain the fun from your profession or hobby then that can indeed "ruin your life" if it's core enough to you as a person. As a maintainer of a moderately successful project, I will say that a small number of toxic community members can have a noteworthy negative impact on your general happyness when heavily involved in a project.
PhasmaFelis 8y ago
Humans are social animals. We are wired to care about the good opinions of the people around us. Being constantly berated is psychologically damaging; it wears on you. And "growing a thicker skin," as people commonly advise, involves forcefully suppressing the part of you that cares about others' opinions, which can make you more callous and less empathetic in everyday life. It's a bad situation.
- the_af 8y ago
  "Growing a thicker skin" is well-intentioned but harmful advice, especially when told to victims of online harassment. Not only because of what you said -- becoming callous and less empathetic isn't a good outcome -- but also because for a lot of people it's not even possible to begin with. Often you cannot decide to "not care".
  - rectang 8y ago
    And it puts the onus on the recipient of the abuse for change rather than the source of the abuse.
dwaltrip 8y ago
> But is it really difficult to just say (or at least, think) "fuck off" and ignore them? At scale, yes.
- dudul 8y ago
  OK, I can believe it since clearly that's what's happening for a lot of open source maintainers, but can you elaborate and explain why?
  - kungtotte 8y ago
    Imagine if everywhere you went in life there was a handful of people talking shit about you and calling you names. Everywhere. All the time. Anytime you're around other people, at least two of them will be loudmouth assholes to you. Relentlessly so. You really can't see how that would get to you eventually?
    - unknownkadath 8y ago
      Nothing in our evolutionary history as social apes prepared us for that.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
    - dudul 8y ago
      I appreciate the response, but isn't it overly dramatic? Like, really, everywhere you go? To the movies, to the barber, to get your groceries?
      - kungtotte 8y ago
        Yes, that would be the real life equivalent of what people like Matz experience on the Internet.

by dudul 8y ago

jakobegger 8y ago

People come and tell you that you are doing things wrong. You think about what they said, start to doubt yourself, wonder if you are indeed wrong, decide that you are not wrong, tell the person your decision, and feel exhausted. Then the next person shows up to tell you that you are doing something wrong. It's not an issue when it just happens occasionally. But it is an issue when it keeps happening again and again. The worst people are the really argumentative people, those who don't stop trying to convince you. You tell them no, and they come up with yet another argument. And they try to make you feel bad for ignoring your audience or something. Most decisions are somewhat subjective, so no matter what you decide someone is going to complain. And you don't want to ignore those people, since they use your product after all. But it's just so tiring...

fundamental 8y ago

If you're deeply involved in open source, then odds are it's in part because you find the process enjoyable. It can take a lot of time to have built up a project. It takes a large amount of dedication to encourage community members and try to help others have an organized effort. In the end it's easy to put a lot of value in having everything working well. If you get a crowd that over the years is harshly negative towards you as an individual, situations where there are many forks which attacks your ability to help the community by fracturing it, or other toxic behavior, then it saps the fun out of things. If there are enough people that drain the fun from your profession or hobby then that can indeed "ruin your life" if it's core enough to you as a person. As a maintainer of a moderately successful project, I will say that a small number of toxic community members can have a noteworthy negative impact on your general happyness when heavily involved in a project.

PhasmaFelis 8y ago

Humans are social animals. We are wired to care about the good opinions of the people around us. Being constantly berated is psychologically damaging; it wears on you. And "growing a thicker skin," as people commonly advise, involves forcefully suppressing the part of you that cares about others' opinions, which can make you more callous and less empathetic in everyday life. It's a bad situation.

the_af 8y ago
"Growing a thicker skin" is well-intentioned but harmful advice, especially when told to victims of online harassment. Not only because of what you said -- becoming callous and less empathetic isn't a good outcome -- but also because for a lot of people it's not even possible to begin with. Often you cannot decide to "not care".
- rectang 8y ago
  And it puts the onus on the recipient of the abuse for change rather than the source of the abuse.

dwaltrip 8y ago

> But is it really difficult to just say (or at least, think) "fuck off" and ignore them? At scale, yes.

dudul 8y ago
OK, I can believe it since clearly that's what's happening for a lot of open source maintainers, but can you elaborate and explain why?
- kungtotte 8y ago
  Imagine if everywhere you went in life there was a handful of people talking shit about you and calling you names. Everywhere. All the time. Anytime you're around other people, at least two of them will be loudmouth assholes to you. Relentlessly so. You really can't see how that would get to you eventually?
  - unknownkadath 8y ago
    Nothing in our evolutionary history as social apes prepared us for that.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
  - dudul 8y ago
    I appreciate the response, but isn't it overly dramatic? Like, really, everywhere you go? To the movies, to the barber, to get your groceries?
    - kungtotte 8y ago
      Yes, that would be the real life equivalent of what people like Matz experience on the Internet.