4 ms·

Is he referring to something specific?

vanderZwan 8y ago
I think that would miss the point; the toxicity of Internet corrodes the sanity of people like Matz or Guide slowly over time. Not all at once
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  How does this tie in with Linus Torvalds, who himself is accused of being toxic and rude? Personally, while on the one side it's toxic, rude, not very welcoming etc etc etc, I do believe it's an effective form of leadership - a dictatorship where he can keep the kernel from becoming everyone's party, and where he can avoid years of discussion with a curt "You are wrong, I am right, shut the fuck up" - and from what I've read, often with a list of arguments, so he's not just yelling at people to shut up but yelling at people to be better. Mind you that's all my superficial interpretation, I don't know the guy, am not involved at all, etc.
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    I think it's strongly related, although I would take a different interpretation (also purely speculative of course). The fundamental issue here is the asymmetrical one-to-many connection, where "many" is basically "gigantic anonymous blob". This creates an enormous power imbalance - not to mention makes it almost impossible for the lone individual on one side to manage the blob on the other, since it only takes a few rotten apples to completely ruin your day. Becoming more blunt, rude or even toxic in response is basically a form of self-defense. It is a way of setting boundaries, of pushing back. In some sense it might work because it can even out the power imbalance in that one-to-many connection, at a cost of course (and it probably doesn't matter much whether or not the person already had that attitude to begin with - the result is the same).
  - blattimwind 8y ago
    > How does this tie in with Linus Torvalds, who himself is accused of being toxic and rude? My kitchen sink psychology take on this would be that sometimes doing something unnice can emotionally compensate for being on the receiving end of un-niceness. You see this a lot in online games where nice players will grief from time to time after they have been griefed. Linus gets a lot of public and presumably also private criticism for basically everything he does, and writing a rude mail every couple weeks may compensate. That being said I personally have written some (in my perception) rude mails and almost always regretted it, apologizing in some cases even. With that in mind I don't envy anyone whose name is prominently associated with a popular open source project. I wouldn't want to be in their skin.
  - 0xdeadbeefbabe 8y ago
    It's a fact that he chose the style on purpose because the diplomatic/nice approach failed horribly at least once.
    - pas 8y ago
      Huh, could you please point to the specific instance of horrible failure? Or at least explain what happened, when, etc?
      - 0xdeadbeefbabe 8y ago
        Here it is https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2142 https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2142
        pas 8y ago
        Thanks! Very interesting to see that in the light of recent CoC adoption and Linus hiatus and so on. Being firm, stating the goals, requirements, laying out a roadmap and so are very important and can be done without being abusive/abrasive. And similarly, asking for a plan and other project/engineering management basics should be the method of steering developers instead of shouting at them when they don't go on the correct way.
config_yml 8y ago
I believe it was this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/ad46f9/whining_ruby_evolution_is_taking_too_long/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/ad46f9/whining_ruby_e...
- ablation 8y ago
  > I believe it was this post Incredibly entitled AND toxic? Yeesh. What a combination.
- rboyd 8y ago
  The OP or one of the replies? Seems pretty civil what am I missing?
- petercooper 8y ago
  As a moderator of that sub-Reddit, I wish to note that while I disagree with this post, I think the poster is both free to express this opinion as they have done and Matz to reply as he has done. I think it shows that the Ruby community is open for debate and discussion, as it always has been, and is no sign, as some have suggested, of any sort of toxicity.
  - the_af 8y ago
    I don't see any toxicity in that post either. Frustration, sure.

I think that would miss the point; the toxicity of Internet corrodes the sanity of people like Matz or Guide slowly over time. Not all at once

Cthulhu_ 8y ago
How does this tie in with Linus Torvalds, who himself is accused of being toxic and rude? Personally, while on the one side it's toxic, rude, not very welcoming etc etc etc, I do believe it's an effective form of leadership - a dictatorship where he can keep the kernel from becoming everyone's party, and where he can avoid years of discussion with a curt "You are wrong, I am right, shut the fuck up" - and from what I've read, often with a list of arguments, so he's not just yelling at people to shut up but yelling at people to be better. Mind you that's all my superficial interpretation, I don't know the guy, am not involved at all, etc.
- vanderZwan 8y ago
  I think it's strongly related, although I would take a different interpretation (also purely speculative of course). The fundamental issue here is the asymmetrical one-to-many connection, where "many" is basically "gigantic anonymous blob". This creates an enormous power imbalance - not to mention makes it almost impossible for the lone individual on one side to manage the blob on the other, since it only takes a few rotten apples to completely ruin your day. Becoming more blunt, rude or even toxic in response is basically a form of self-defense. It is a way of setting boundaries, of pushing back. In some sense it might work because it can even out the power imbalance in that one-to-many connection, at a cost of course (and it probably doesn't matter much whether or not the person already had that attitude to begin with - the result is the same).
- blattimwind 8y ago
  > How does this tie in with Linus Torvalds, who himself is accused of being toxic and rude? My kitchen sink psychology take on this would be that sometimes doing something unnice can emotionally compensate for being on the receiving end of un-niceness. You see this a lot in online games where nice players will grief from time to time after they have been griefed. Linus gets a lot of public and presumably also private criticism for basically everything he does, and writing a rude mail every couple weeks may compensate. That being said I personally have written some (in my perception) rude mails and almost always regretted it, apologizing in some cases even. With that in mind I don't envy anyone whose name is prominently associated with a popular open source project. I wouldn't want to be in their skin.
- 0xdeadbeefbabe 8y ago
  It's a fact that he chose the style on purpose because the diplomatic/nice approach failed horribly at least once.
  - pas 8y ago
    Huh, could you please point to the specific instance of horrible failure? Or at least explain what happened, when, etc?
    - 0xdeadbeefbabe 8y ago
      Here it is https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2142 https://youtu.be/MShbP3OpASA?t=2142
      - pas 8y ago
        Thanks! Very interesting to see that in the light of recent CoC adoption and Linus hiatus and so on. Being firm, stating the goals, requirements, laying out a roadmap and so are very important and can be done without being abusive/abrasive. And similarly, asking for a plan and other project/engineering management basics should be the method of steering developers instead of shouting at them when they don't go on the correct way.

config_yml 8y ago

I believe it was this post: https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/ad46f9/whining_ruby_evolution_is_taking_too_long/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ruby/comments/ad46f9/whining_ruby_e...

ablation 8y ago
> I believe it was this post Incredibly entitled AND toxic? Yeesh. What a combination.
rboyd 8y ago
The OP or one of the replies? Seems pretty civil what am I missing?
petercooper 8y ago
As a moderator of that sub-Reddit, I wish to note that while I disagree with this post, I think the poster is both free to express this opinion as they have done and Matz to reply as he has done. I think it shows that the Ruby community is open for debate and discussion, as it always has been, and is no sign, as some have suggested, of any sort of toxicity.
- the_af 8y ago
  I don't see any toxicity in that post either. Frustration, sure.