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The hobbyists may not have access to do so. Perhaps their site is on a VPS or worse, a SAAS product? And why should a Canadian running a site on American serve

The hobbyists may not have access to do so. Perhaps their site is on a VPS or worse, a SAAS product? And why should a Canadian running a site on American servers have to fear EU law? Why isn't it the EU citizen's responsibility to know, understand and abide by the rules and regulations of the countries they're visiting online?

dmitriid 8y ago
Why should a European citizen abide by the laws of a different country (which may be illigal in their country BTW)
- trothamel 8y ago
  They shouldn't, but it's not their problem. If I, as the prince of Princeton, was to pass a law that each time one of my subjects visits your website, you must pay me $1, you'd think that's mad. And you'd be right - since you're not bound by Princeton laws. The EU is claiming that sites in other countries are bound by EU laws - and that's just as wrong as if Princeton passed the laws.
  - Semaphor 8y ago
    Countries (or conglomerates of them) applying their laws world-wide has long been what the US does on the internet. It's a bit too late to put that genie back in the bottle.
    - hnra 8y ago
      A website hosted outside of US jurisdiction will rarely get in trouble for breaking US specific laws.
      - robin_reala 8y ago
        But if the owners of that website visit the US they’re liable to be arrested (assuming the site has enough impact). Same in reverse.
      - Semaphor 8y ago
        Kim Dotcom and Megaupload is probably the biggest current and ongoing counterargument. But it's been standard behavior in other cases.
        hnra 8y ago
        Which is why I added rarely; personally I was thinking of thepiratebay trials in Sweden. I do believe both Mega and TPB are as a result of breaking US law but TPB was at least tried in Sweden and found to be breaking Swedish law, not sure if the same goes/went for Kim.
        johannes1234321 8y ago
        The question is: Are you breaking the Swedish law while targeting Swedish people? For isntance: Germany has laws around limiting usage of Nazi symbolism. If you create a web page glorifying Nazis and their symbols this is illegal under German law. If you run such a site targeting Americans no German state attorney or Court will take the case (exceptions exist for stupidity or ego or power play reasons) however if you host a page in the U.S. aiming at German Nazis that way (for example by commenting on German politics and German language) they will try to go after you. (Which might not lead far, as the site is probably protected by US freedom of speech, thus US authorities won't assist, but you might want to avoid travelling to Germany and countries which might cooperate with Germany) P.S. I don't want to imply that you have any such plans for such a site, but it's a specific example working fully virtual
  - BlackFly 8y ago
    Legally, the EU is claiming that if you do certain things which affect EU residents, then it will declare a judgment against you regardless of where you were when you did those things. This idea is not new and certainly is not seen as unequivocally wrong in law. If you produce libel against someone from another country, that person may sue you in their home country. That you performed the libel in another country is not generally seen as problematic to the libel laws of most countries. The US may refuse to recognize the judgment and you are fine as long as you do not travel to said country or a country with extradition agreements.
  - maeln 8y ago
    The US as a ban on banks to do business with Iran. This also affect bank that are not US-based but do business with US (see [1]). The banks are free to do business with Iran, but they will then get ban from doing business in the US. The GDPR is exactly the same. EU says that you have to comply with the GDPR if you process EU-citizen data. So company have the same choice: Comply with the EU GDPR or don't do business with the EU. I don't think it happen yet, and I think that the framework for this is not even ready yet, but nothing would prevent EU from banning your service in the EU if you don't want to comply with the EU GDPR. I honestly don't understand why there is such an outcry about it. It always worked like this: you want to do business with a country, you apply the law of the country. Internet is not a magical international space with no regulation. You can argue that this kind of laws, that is a form of protectionism in a way, is bad. But it has been this way for a very long time and GDPR is absolutely not the first time such a law was put in place. Just another example, if you are a US citizen creating a bank account in the EU, the bank (even if it is a EU bank), will have to declare it to US authorities (apparently due to your tax system that also apply if you are resident abroad). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_Iran#Sanctions_against_third_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...
- Cthulhu_ 8y ago
  They shouldn't, UNLESS they are physically in said country, do business in said country, or use services based in said country. Re: GDPR, if a US or Canada based company does business in Europe, or has data for European users, they have to comply to European laws. Just like European online services have to comply with e.g. DMCA takedown requests if they want to do business in the US, or online services have to comply with Chinese censorship laws if they want to do business in China.
t0astbread 8y ago
Because that would be a loophole to sidestep EU laws? If you offer your services in the EU, you have to respect EU law.
- JoshTriplett 8y ago
  If you offer your services on the Internet, and someone chooses to use them from the EU, that does not mean you "offer your services in the EU". Or do you plan to make all of your web services "respect" the laws of 200+ countries in the world, and for that matter all the sub-jurisdictions of those countries (such as states or provinces or cities) that have their own laws? The EU is not special in that regard, they're just one more jurisdiction that the service isn't hosted in.
  - BlackFly 8y ago
    It is context based. In the case at hand, I think it is fairly clear that the Eve corp wants users from Europe, since otherwise other corps which take users from Europe would out compete them. I'm not an Eve player, but my understanding is that you want your corp to be as large as possible to produce certain ships/stations? Other contexts, like a company offering investments to US based startups is unlikely to be seen as offering services to European residents even if Europeans can create accounts there. As to jurisdiction, you can always sit in your home country and ignore any rulings against you from other countries so long as you are sure that your own country will not extradite you for such a thing (I am confident that Canada would not extradite a Canadian residence for such a thing). Just don't ever try to cross the border into a European country.
    - isostatic 8y ago
      America set the precedent with arresting foreign nationals for breaching US laws while on foreign territory with Dmitry Sklyarov
      - dragonwriter 8y ago
        > America set the precedent with arresting foreign nationals for breaching US laws while on foreign territory with Dmitry Sklyarov It set the precedent for arresting foreign national for breaching US laws while on foreign territory considerably before Sklyarov's arrest in 2001; some notable prior examples include Humberto Alvarez Machain (1985) and Manuel Noriega (1989), though they weren't the earliest, either. Insofar as Sklyarov's case was notable, it was more because the charged offenses were completely legal where they occurred, not because they were allegedly committed by a foreign national outside of the US.
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dmitriid 8y ago

Why should a European citizen abide by the laws of a different country (which may be illigal in their country BTW)

trothamel 8y ago
They shouldn't, but it's not their problem. If I, as the prince of Princeton, was to pass a law that each time one of my subjects visits your website, you must pay me $1, you'd think that's mad. And you'd be right - since you're not bound by Princeton laws. The EU is claiming that sites in other countries are bound by EU laws - and that's just as wrong as if Princeton passed the laws.
- Semaphor 8y ago
  Countries (or conglomerates of them) applying their laws world-wide has long been what the US does on the internet. It's a bit too late to put that genie back in the bottle.
  - hnra 8y ago
    A website hosted outside of US jurisdiction will rarely get in trouble for breaking US specific laws.
    - robin_reala 8y ago
      But if the owners of that website visit the US they’re liable to be arrested (assuming the site has enough impact). Same in reverse.
    - Semaphor 8y ago
      Kim Dotcom and Megaupload is probably the biggest current and ongoing counterargument. But it's been standard behavior in other cases.
      - hnra 8y ago
        Which is why I added rarely; personally I was thinking of thepiratebay trials in Sweden. I do believe both Mega and TPB are as a result of breaking US law but TPB was at least tried in Sweden and found to be breaking Swedish law, not sure if the same goes/went for Kim.
        johannes1234321 8y ago
        The question is: Are you breaking the Swedish law while targeting Swedish people? For isntance: Germany has laws around limiting usage of Nazi symbolism. If you create a web page glorifying Nazis and their symbols this is illegal under German law. If you run such a site targeting Americans no German state attorney or Court will take the case (exceptions exist for stupidity or ego or power play reasons) however if you host a page in the U.S. aiming at German Nazis that way (for example by commenting on German politics and German language) they will try to go after you. (Which might not lead far, as the site is probably protected by US freedom of speech, thus US authorities won't assist, but you might want to avoid travelling to Germany and countries which might cooperate with Germany) P.S. I don't want to imply that you have any such plans for such a site, but it's a specific example working fully virtual
- BlackFly 8y ago
  Legally, the EU is claiming that if you do certain things which affect EU residents, then it will declare a judgment against you regardless of where you were when you did those things. This idea is not new and certainly is not seen as unequivocally wrong in law. If you produce libel against someone from another country, that person may sue you in their home country. That you performed the libel in another country is not generally seen as problematic to the libel laws of most countries. The US may refuse to recognize the judgment and you are fine as long as you do not travel to said country or a country with extradition agreements.
- maeln 8y ago
  The US as a ban on banks to do business with Iran. This also affect bank that are not US-based but do business with US (see [1]). The banks are free to do business with Iran, but they will then get ban from doing business in the US. The GDPR is exactly the same. EU says that you have to comply with the GDPR if you process EU-citizen data. So company have the same choice: Comply with the EU GDPR or don't do business with the EU. I don't think it happen yet, and I think that the framework for this is not even ready yet, but nothing would prevent EU from banning your service in the EU if you don't want to comply with the EU GDPR. I honestly don't understand why there is such an outcry about it. It always worked like this: you want to do business with a country, you apply the law of the country. Internet is not a magical international space with no regulation. You can argue that this kind of laws, that is a form of protectionism in a way, is bad. But it has been this way for a very long time and GDPR is absolutely not the first time such a law was put in place. Just another example, if you are a US citizen creating a bank account in the EU, the bank (even if it is a EU bank), will have to declare it to US authorities (apparently due to your tax system that also apply if you are resident abroad). [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_against_Iran#Sanctions_against_third_parties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_sanctions_agains...
Cthulhu_ 8y ago
They shouldn't, UNLESS they are physically in said country, do business in said country, or use services based in said country. Re: GDPR, if a US or Canada based company does business in Europe, or has data for European users, they have to comply to European laws. Just like European online services have to comply with e.g. DMCA takedown requests if they want to do business in the US, or online services have to comply with Chinese censorship laws if they want to do business in China.

t0astbread 8y ago

Because that would be a loophole to sidestep EU laws? If you offer your services in the EU, you have to respect EU law.

JoshTriplett 8y ago
If you offer your services on the Internet, and someone chooses to use them from the EU, that does not mean you "offer your services in the EU". Or do you plan to make all of your web services "respect" the laws of 200+ countries in the world, and for that matter all the sub-jurisdictions of those countries (such as states or provinces or cities) that have their own laws? The EU is not special in that regard, they're just one more jurisdiction that the service isn't hosted in.
- BlackFly 8y ago
  It is context based. In the case at hand, I think it is fairly clear that the Eve corp wants users from Europe, since otherwise other corps which take users from Europe would out compete them. I'm not an Eve player, but my understanding is that you want your corp to be as large as possible to produce certain ships/stations? Other contexts, like a company offering investments to US based startups is unlikely to be seen as offering services to European residents even if Europeans can create accounts there. As to jurisdiction, you can always sit in your home country and ignore any rulings against you from other countries so long as you are sure that your own country will not extradite you for such a thing (I am confident that Canada would not extradite a Canadian residence for such a thing). Just don't ever try to cross the border into a European country.
  - isostatic 8y ago
    America set the precedent with arresting foreign nationals for breaching US laws while on foreign territory with Dmitry Sklyarov
    - dragonwriter 8y ago
      > America set the precedent with arresting foreign nationals for breaching US laws while on foreign territory with Dmitry Sklyarov It set the precedent for arresting foreign national for breaching US laws while on foreign territory considerably before Sklyarov's arrest in 2001; some notable prior examples include Humberto Alvarez Machain (1985) and Manuel Noriega (1989), though they weren't the earliest, either. Insofar as Sklyarov's case was notable, it was more because the charged offenses were completely legal where they occurred, not because they were allegedly committed by a foreign national outside of the US.

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