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You know, it's funny, there's a lot of comments saying something along the lines of "college isn't just to get a job". Which is really funny, since that's abso

You know, it's funny, there's a lot of comments saying something along the lines of "college isn't just to get a job". Which is really funny, since that's absolutely the primary reason why college educations are pushed. E.g. "if you don't go to college you'll end up working at McDonald's" Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education.

daveFNbuck 8y ago
> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. You could try checking course requirements. Every college I'm aware of requires that students take classes in a variety of subjects outside their major before they can graduate.
- kartickv 8y ago
  Which doesn't provide the evidence the parent was looking for. Just because you take a variety of classes doesn't mean that they have a benefit. If they do, please give us the evidence.
  - puszczyk 8y ago
    Not sure if it’s anyones job to search for evidence for you or the parent.
    - setr 8y ago
      It is, if you have any interest in convincing him otherwise, and successfully holding a conversation. If your goal is to argue aimlessly, and simply make your anti-claim with no new information (thereby convincing no one), then yes, you have no further tasks to be executed. But then you might as well have not spoken in the first place. Otherwise, all you’re claiming afaict is that the posters should argue with themselves — find the counter-evidence to their own claims, which is likely sufficiently convincing that they would not have had any reason to speak in the first place. That is, this idea of “not anyone’s job to search for (counter)evidence” is antagonistic to any form of discussion where parties disagree. If you want to make the opposing claim successfully, its quite useful to have evidence to support it (it’s not their job to find it for you... its not anyone’s job to do anything in an HN thread.)
      - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
        The "citation needed" type of response is also antagonistic in what is a discussion site rather than an academic paper.
        kartickv 8y ago
        I see where you're coming from, but it's good to impose the burden of proof on the person making the claim. If the person making the claim can't be bothered to dig up any supporting information, neither can others. It keeps the quality of discussion higher than otherwise. One one or two occasions, when I was about to post something, I looked for evidence, and realised I was mistaken, and didn't mislead others.
        DanBC 8y ago
        You're making pretty strong claims but haven't supported a single one of them.
        setr 8y ago
        Sort of; if the other party is making clear what evidence he’s looking for to disprove his thinking, I think its fair — especially when his ideas run counter to the norm (which naturally people put a lot of belief in, with nothing to support it, because everyone else believes in it). Ofc, if he just counters everything with citation needed, its pointless. But in this case, evidence was requested for a particular idea, and the response was completely tangential to the request. And it wasn’t really an issue of citation needed, I think, so much as just anything to support the idea that colleges actually offer non-job value (and that they offer courses across multiple fields is insufficient, which is true, its a thing they’re doing but says nothing about effectiveness). Ofc, the difference is in the intent. And the problem I have with “its not my job” is the intent; it’s a belief/defense whose primary purpose/outcome is to kill communication, and I very much like communicating
  - daveFNbuck 8y ago
    The parent asked about the > virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education How could I possibly provide evidence of an intangible benefit? All I can do is show that they provide the education that's supposed to have this quality.
dahfizz 8y ago
I have never found the argument that "college isn't about getting a job" convincing. Yes, it's important to be well rounded and expand your horizons and all the other platitudes that people say. But I'm not paying tuition to be "well rounded", I'm going to college as an investment in my own human capital. I can read an interesting book in the evening to be "well rounded".
- jrs95 8y ago
  Some people confuse being well-rounded with having other people tell you their ideas and then being able to repeat and maybe even riff on them.
- claudiawerner 8y ago
  Perhaps some people are paying tuition to such intangible benefits, just you (and I) aren't. Many people in such situations likely repudiate the whole concept of "human capital" (and maybe with good reason).
  - dahfizz 8y ago
    That does seem like buying a car factory because you like the new car smell, in a way. Maybe it's the bias of my own experiences, but I can't imagine what rational person faced with the realities of the world would spend tens of thousands of dollars (and $1 million+ over thier lifetime potentially) and years of thier lives in pursuit of what is essientially a curiosity or hobby (unless they are already very well off). If one does have such an intense interest in some topic, getting a "real degree" at college would offer them a lifetime of spare money and time to pursue it. You can't do much painting working 80 hours at McDonald's only to not be able to afford paint. It just doesn't make sense to me.
austincheney 8y ago
> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. The biggest performance dilemma I noticed upon entering college is basic literacy. I saw most people reading at a 9th grade level, which is average for most Americans, and struggle to write a 2 page paper. That 2 page paper was hardly competent once written. The problem was so pronounced that in order to be awarded graduation of a bachelor's degree you had to take and pass a writing competency test at any time during your undergraduate education. In the real world, as a software developer, the biggest barrier I see to the success of many developers is basic literacy. I see so many people who cannot communicate at a professional level. They struggle to reason about the problems they encounter and struggle further to put their thoughts into words that a make sense to an outside party. Most developers I have ever worked with spend their entire careers struggling with a variety of concerns that ultimately (when you remove the bullshit and excuses) boil down to struggles of basic code literacy. I suspect we have all encountered this when everything is an argument of code style, spaces vs tabs, OOP vs functional, and so forth. Code literacy is the difference between thinking in terms of algebra (instructions) versus thinking in terms of calculus (process). When you are literate you form visions of what you want and simply build the vision accordingly. As somebody who rewrote their personal application from scratch last year (about 40,000 lines of code with minimal boilerplate) while also working for two separate employers and having a spouse and kids I really don't have patience for people who fill their time with literacy bullshit. As somebody currently deployed with the time military to a conflict zone this is the thing I dread most about returning to the corporate world. Holy shit people. Pick up a damn book and read. How you communicate will influence how you write code.
- ksec 8y ago
  >Holy shit people. Pick up a damn book and read. How you communicate will influence how you write code. This is a problem when most information consumed are now either in Video ( TV / YouTube, etc ), Pictures ( IG with short or no description ), and Short form of writing ( Blog Post / Internet Comments ), even worst is when most of these are for Entertainment. And there is a trend of basic literacy falling even those coming out of College ( Or Universities ). Not quite sure how we could fix this. People aren't reading books any more. Steve Jobs once said we need Editorial more so than ever, and not fallen into a nations of bloggers, and that was nearly 9 years ago.
jessedhillon 8y ago
> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. 1) what evidence would convince you? 2) when you consider that education is a social policy, and is designed with the purpose of delivering benefit at scale, does that change your opinion? (That is, when you consider that it's meant to shift the median student's outcome more than that of the p99 student)
raverbashing 8y ago
Don't get me started College education is hugely overrated, and especially by using bad reasons like that Spare me the hyperboles, using the "well rounded" adjective makes no sense except for objects that are supposed to be round. College is essential if you are in a regulated profession and/or is it too expensive (or impossible) to learn it yourself (like medicine, other engineerings, law, etc) For other areas? Not so much
- aaaaaatttuyy 8y ago
  I'm curious about what you consider 'other areas' to be, and about how competent you think you are at them.
aaaaaatttuyy 8y ago
College is education, not training. Crucial aspects of working in the real world are learned on the job, things that how to operate in an office environment, how to collaborate, how to write, present and justify your ideas and render them into applied things. These are not things taught in university.

daveFNbuck 8y ago

> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. You could try checking course requirements. Every college I'm aware of requires that students take classes in a variety of subjects outside their major before they can graduate.

kartickv 8y ago
Which doesn't provide the evidence the parent was looking for. Just because you take a variety of classes doesn't mean that they have a benefit. If they do, please give us the evidence.
- puszczyk 8y ago
  Not sure if it’s anyones job to search for evidence for you or the parent.
  - setr 8y ago
    It is, if you have any interest in convincing him otherwise, and successfully holding a conversation. If your goal is to argue aimlessly, and simply make your anti-claim with no new information (thereby convincing no one), then yes, you have no further tasks to be executed. But then you might as well have not spoken in the first place. Otherwise, all you’re claiming afaict is that the posters should argue with themselves — find the counter-evidence to their own claims, which is likely sufficiently convincing that they would not have had any reason to speak in the first place. That is, this idea of “not anyone’s job to search for (counter)evidence” is antagonistic to any form of discussion where parties disagree. If you want to make the opposing claim successfully, its quite useful to have evidence to support it (it’s not their job to find it for you... its not anyone’s job to do anything in an HN thread.)
    - tonyedgecombe 8y ago
      The "citation needed" type of response is also antagonistic in what is a discussion site rather than an academic paper.
      - kartickv 8y ago
        I see where you're coming from, but it's good to impose the burden of proof on the person making the claim. If the person making the claim can't be bothered to dig up any supporting information, neither can others. It keeps the quality of discussion higher than otherwise. One one or two occasions, when I was about to post something, I looked for evidence, and realised I was mistaken, and didn't mislead others.
        DanBC 8y ago
        You're making pretty strong claims but haven't supported a single one of them.
      - setr 8y ago
        Sort of; if the other party is making clear what evidence he’s looking for to disprove his thinking, I think its fair — especially when his ideas run counter to the norm (which naturally people put a lot of belief in, with nothing to support it, because everyone else believes in it). Ofc, if he just counters everything with citation needed, its pointless. But in this case, evidence was requested for a particular idea, and the response was completely tangential to the request. And it wasn’t really an issue of citation needed, I think, so much as just anything to support the idea that colleges actually offer non-job value (and that they offer courses across multiple fields is insufficient, which is true, its a thing they’re doing but says nothing about effectiveness). Ofc, the difference is in the intent. And the problem I have with “its not my job” is the intent; it’s a belief/defense whose primary purpose/outcome is to kill communication, and I very much like communicating
- daveFNbuck 8y ago
  The parent asked about the > virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education How could I possibly provide evidence of an intangible benefit? All I can do is show that they provide the education that's supposed to have this quality.

dahfizz 8y ago

I have never found the argument that "college isn't about getting a job" convincing. Yes, it's important to be well rounded and expand your horizons and all the other platitudes that people say. But I'm not paying tuition to be "well rounded", I'm going to college as an investment in my own human capital. I can read an interesting book in the evening to be "well rounded".

jrs95 8y ago
Some people confuse being well-rounded with having other people tell you their ideas and then being able to repeat and maybe even riff on them.
claudiawerner 8y ago
Perhaps some people are paying tuition to such intangible benefits, just you (and I) aren't. Many people in such situations likely repudiate the whole concept of "human capital" (and maybe with good reason).
- dahfizz 8y ago
  That does seem like buying a car factory because you like the new car smell, in a way. Maybe it's the bias of my own experiences, but I can't imagine what rational person faced with the realities of the world would spend tens of thousands of dollars (and $1 million+ over thier lifetime potentially) and years of thier lives in pursuit of what is essientially a curiosity or hobby (unless they are already very well off). If one does have such an intense interest in some topic, getting a "real degree" at college would offer them a lifetime of spare money and time to pursue it. You can't do much painting working 80 hours at McDonald's only to not be able to afford paint. It just doesn't make sense to me.

austincheney 8y ago

> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. The biggest performance dilemma I noticed upon entering college is basic literacy. I saw most people reading at a 9th grade level, which is average for most Americans, and struggle to write a 2 page paper. That 2 page paper was hardly competent once written. The problem was so pronounced that in order to be awarded graduation of a bachelor's degree you had to take and pass a writing competency test at any time during your undergraduate education. In the real world, as a software developer, the biggest barrier I see to the success of many developers is basic literacy. I see so many people who cannot communicate at a professional level. They struggle to reason about the problems they encounter and struggle further to put their thoughts into words that a make sense to an outside party. Most developers I have ever worked with spend their entire careers struggling with a variety of concerns that ultimately (when you remove the bullshit and excuses) boil down to struggles of basic code literacy. I suspect we have all encountered this when everything is an argument of code style, spaces vs tabs, OOP vs functional, and so forth. Code literacy is the difference between thinking in terms of algebra (instructions) versus thinking in terms of calculus (process). When you are literate you form visions of what you want and simply build the vision accordingly. As somebody who rewrote their personal application from scratch last year (about 40,000 lines of code with minimal boilerplate) while also working for two separate employers and having a spouse and kids I really don't have patience for people who fill their time with literacy bullshit. As somebody currently deployed with the time military to a conflict zone this is the thing I dread most about returning to the corporate world. Holy shit people. Pick up a damn book and read. How you communicate will influence how you write code.

ksec 8y ago
>Holy shit people. Pick up a damn book and read. How you communicate will influence how you write code. This is a problem when most information consumed are now either in Video ( TV / YouTube, etc ), Pictures ( IG with short or no description ), and Short form of writing ( Blog Post / Internet Comments ), even worst is when most of these are for Entertainment. And there is a trend of basic literacy falling even those coming out of College ( Or Universities ). Not quite sure how we could fix this. People aren't reading books any more. Steve Jobs once said we need Editorial more so than ever, and not fallen into a nations of bloggers, and that was nearly 9 years ago.

jessedhillon 8y ago

> Plus, I have yet to see the evidence that colleges provide this virtuous yet intangible quality of non-economically beneficial "wholesome" education. 1) what evidence would convince you? 2) when you consider that education is a social policy, and is designed with the purpose of delivering benefit at scale, does that change your opinion? (That is, when you consider that it's meant to shift the median student's outcome more than that of the p99 student)

raverbashing 8y ago

Don't get me started College education is hugely overrated, and especially by using bad reasons like that Spare me the hyperboles, using the "well rounded" adjective makes no sense except for objects that are supposed to be round. College is essential if you are in a regulated profession and/or is it too expensive (or impossible) to learn it yourself (like medicine, other engineerings, law, etc) For other areas? Not so much

aaaaaatttuyy 8y ago
I'm curious about what you consider 'other areas' to be, and about how competent you think you are at them.

aaaaaatttuyy 8y ago

College is education, not training. Crucial aspects of working in the real world are learned on the job, things that how to operate in an office environment, how to collaborate, how to write, present and justify your ideas and render them into applied things. These are not things taught in university.