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I'm gonna notice that you left "remove headphone jack" alone. Because everybody, universally, understands that removing the headphone jack is a terrible idea.

booleandilemma 8y ago
Because everybody, universally, understands that removing the headphone jack is a terrible idea. I haven’t used wired headphones in over four years and nothing will make me want to go back to them. I don’t miss the headphone jack at all.
saagarjha 8y ago
> Because everybody, universally, understands that removing the headphone jack is a terrible idea. I've argued this point before, and wasn't particularly in the mood to discuss it again. There are multiple reasons I didn't bring it up: 1. I use an iPhone SE, so I'm not really qualified discuss this. I do exclusively use AirPods now, though, so I have the feeling that I wouldn't mind the lack of a headphone jack now. 2. The removal of the headphone jack was not done in a vacuum; it's pretty obvious that if there was no drawbacks, it would be great to have a headphone jack in my iPhone. But we live in a world where tradeoffs exist–otherwise, my phone would have every port that ever existed in the last thirty years.
- SllX 8y ago
  I’m in the camp that firmly believes that AirPods or an AirPod-equivalent completes the general audio experience on an iPhone. Being able to trivially link them to my laptop is also very nice, but what really makes it is being able to invoke and use Siri reliably when my phone is in my pocket so long as the network conditions aren’t crap. That said, removing or not including certain features does make it less of a general purpose device that is less useful to more people. Apple has been ragged on from day one for not including some form of SD card support, an FM tuner and a removable battery. To this day there are people that will refuse to buy a phone without those features. They might not be strictly necessary features, but they still sell phones, or at least make them viable to the kind of person that demands them, but Apple still sold hundreds of millions of iOS devices without those features. Then they removed the headphone jack too. To a group of people that were never concerned about the lack of removable media, a radio tuner, and a removable battery and bought iPhones for years, they suddenly lost one feature they actually used and were told to buy a single instead. I mean if your car’s Bluetooth radio sucks, or you have a very nice pair of wired headphones you like using, or you simply want to be able to plug your phone into a random audio source at some party, being told to buy a dongle instead sucks. It’s just one more tiny little $10 widget which will get lost or worn out or rendered useless in a laundry mishap. Apple made a trade off, but in this instance, it does not seem like a worthwhile trade off and it does hurt their image when they make some seemingly anti-customer choice like this. Even people that weren’t personally affected and didn’t mind shelling out for a set of AirPods or W1 Beats might change their perception when enough shit hits the fan and is flung in the face of those around them.
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    > what really makes it is being able to invoke and use Siri reliably when my phone is in my pocket Interestingly, my AirPods seem to be defective and this is something that mine won't do ;) > Apple made a trade off, but in this instance, it does not seem like a worthwhile trade off and it does hurt their image when they make some seemingly anti-customer choice like this. Every Apple device is a tradeoff. It just so happens that the removal of the headphone jack was a trade off that a larger-than-usual number seem to have taken issue with, though it's not clear that this is a perspective shared by the majority of iPhone users.
    - SllX 8y ago
      > Interestingly, my AirPods seem to be defective and this is something that mine won't do ;) Ah! Of course! Sadly there is no warranty replacement for your problem. ;( Kidding aside, Siri required some work to understand and shape into a useful tool, but it was worth it to me to make sure I never pulled out my phone without the intention of doing the specific task I pulled it out to do, and only those tasks that require me to look at the screen. Phone calls, playing podcasts, audiobooks and music, and setting alarms, timers and reminders basically work. Haven’t found a way to do Calendar appointments in the level of detail and granularity I prefer though, so I just continued doing that mostly on my laptop. Not for everyone, but once I figured out how to make Siri useful after years of not using it at all, it was the killer app for AirPods. Still won’t tick nearly all the boxes on anyone’s Butler-in-a-Box wishlist though. > Every Apple device is a tradeoff. It just so happens that the removal of the headphone jack was a trade off that a larger-than-usual number seem to have taken issue with, though it's not clear that this is a perspective shared by the majority of iPhone users. I’m not at all disagreeing that every Apple device is a tradeoff. I don’t think I even implied that it wasn’t, what I’m getting at is that on top of the other trade offs they have already made, that this additional trade off, for the reasons they did it, may not have actually been a good one, and I don’t think it has to affect a majority of users to still be a bad tradeoff. If, and I’m pulling this number from my ass, but if 20% of your existing install base is unhappy with a decision you made on a model they would otherwise have no problem purchasing, but 80% are at worse indifferent, then you’ve still pissed off 20% of your customers. It might be 15%, or 10%, or 5% or something even lower, but with a customer base as large as Apple’s, that is still a lot of people that may not be buying iPhones the next time they do, or might but will be dissatisfied, and express this dissatisfaction to their social groups. It still tarnishes the brand. If this were the only thing that tarnished Apple’s brand in recent years it might be fine, but it’s not and the removal of the headphone jack didn’t happen in a vacuum.
- joering2 8y ago
  Im curious: can you give me example of how you would use a vacuum tube port on your iphone? Here is my story: i left my cruise cabin in the middle of the night and went to the bow. In shock I discovered it was almost as bright as a daylight - oh my the full moon looks beautiful. I was alone and played the titanic scene for a monent. Imagine me alone, warm summer night, carribeans, full moon and cruise ship gliding through quiet ocean. Perfect moment hard to repeat with all these circumstances. I immediately reach out to my pocket to put headsets on just to listen to some Leonard Cohen’s songs. Imagine my shock when I realized I forgot the iphone’s jack adapter ;(
  - saagarjha 8y ago
    > can you give me example of how you would use a vacuum tube port on your iphone? Cleaning up crumbs?
briandear 8y ago
I don’t use it. I use AirPods or Beats. I’m not doing studio mixing or mastering on my iPhone, so being able to use $1000 wired reference headphones isn’t a use case I care about. Even on my laptop, I use an Apogee interface when I need perfect wired audio. I realize that some people do care about the headphone jack, but that’s quixkly going the way of the floppy drive for most users.
vesak 8y ago
Nah, the headphone jack can move to the history books already. They oughta replace it with something standard, though, like USB-C. Bluetooth isn't an acceptable total replacement as long as batteries add bulk and need to be recharged. When that's fixed, Bluetooth everywhere will be fine also.
- xxs 8y ago
  Bluetooth has lag, which makes it useless for playing instruments (say guitar). Analog jacks are a nice feature, moving the DAC through another interface doesn't solve much.
eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago
Nope. The average consumer simply does not care. This is a mobile device, not an audiophile device. And more and more devices are wireless now.

booleandilemma 8y ago

Because everybody, universally, understands that removing the headphone jack is a terrible idea. I haven’t used wired headphones in over four years and nothing will make me want to go back to them. I don’t miss the headphone jack at all.

saagarjha 8y ago

> Because everybody, universally, understands that removing the headphone jack is a terrible idea. I've argued this point before, and wasn't particularly in the mood to discuss it again. There are multiple reasons I didn't bring it up: 1. I use an iPhone SE, so I'm not really qualified discuss this. I do exclusively use AirPods now, though, so I have the feeling that I wouldn't mind the lack of a headphone jack now. 2. The removal of the headphone jack was not done in a vacuum; it's pretty obvious that if there was no drawbacks, it would be great to have a headphone jack in my iPhone. But we live in a world where tradeoffs exist–otherwise, my phone would have every port that ever existed in the last thirty years.

SllX 8y ago
I’m in the camp that firmly believes that AirPods or an AirPod-equivalent completes the general audio experience on an iPhone. Being able to trivially link them to my laptop is also very nice, but what really makes it is being able to invoke and use Siri reliably when my phone is in my pocket so long as the network conditions aren’t crap. That said, removing or not including certain features does make it less of a general purpose device that is less useful to more people. Apple has been ragged on from day one for not including some form of SD card support, an FM tuner and a removable battery. To this day there are people that will refuse to buy a phone without those features. They might not be strictly necessary features, but they still sell phones, or at least make them viable to the kind of person that demands them, but Apple still sold hundreds of millions of iOS devices without those features. Then they removed the headphone jack too. To a group of people that were never concerned about the lack of removable media, a radio tuner, and a removable battery and bought iPhones for years, they suddenly lost one feature they actually used and were told to buy a single instead. I mean if your car’s Bluetooth radio sucks, or you have a very nice pair of wired headphones you like using, or you simply want to be able to plug your phone into a random audio source at some party, being told to buy a dongle instead sucks. It’s just one more tiny little $10 widget which will get lost or worn out or rendered useless in a laundry mishap. Apple made a trade off, but in this instance, it does not seem like a worthwhile trade off and it does hurt their image when they make some seemingly anti-customer choice like this. Even people that weren’t personally affected and didn’t mind shelling out for a set of AirPods or W1 Beats might change their perception when enough shit hits the fan and is flung in the face of those around them.
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > what really makes it is being able to invoke and use Siri reliably when my phone is in my pocket Interestingly, my AirPods seem to be defective and this is something that mine won't do ;) > Apple made a trade off, but in this instance, it does not seem like a worthwhile trade off and it does hurt their image when they make some seemingly anti-customer choice like this. Every Apple device is a tradeoff. It just so happens that the removal of the headphone jack was a trade off that a larger-than-usual number seem to have taken issue with, though it's not clear that this is a perspective shared by the majority of iPhone users.
  - SllX 8y ago
    > Interestingly, my AirPods seem to be defective and this is something that mine won't do ;) Ah! Of course! Sadly there is no warranty replacement for your problem. ;( Kidding aside, Siri required some work to understand and shape into a useful tool, but it was worth it to me to make sure I never pulled out my phone without the intention of doing the specific task I pulled it out to do, and only those tasks that require me to look at the screen. Phone calls, playing podcasts, audiobooks and music, and setting alarms, timers and reminders basically work. Haven’t found a way to do Calendar appointments in the level of detail and granularity I prefer though, so I just continued doing that mostly on my laptop. Not for everyone, but once I figured out how to make Siri useful after years of not using it at all, it was the killer app for AirPods. Still won’t tick nearly all the boxes on anyone’s Butler-in-a-Box wishlist though. > Every Apple device is a tradeoff. It just so happens that the removal of the headphone jack was a trade off that a larger-than-usual number seem to have taken issue with, though it's not clear that this is a perspective shared by the majority of iPhone users. I’m not at all disagreeing that every Apple device is a tradeoff. I don’t think I even implied that it wasn’t, what I’m getting at is that on top of the other trade offs they have already made, that this additional trade off, for the reasons they did it, may not have actually been a good one, and I don’t think it has to affect a majority of users to still be a bad tradeoff. If, and I’m pulling this number from my ass, but if 20% of your existing install base is unhappy with a decision you made on a model they would otherwise have no problem purchasing, but 80% are at worse indifferent, then you’ve still pissed off 20% of your customers. It might be 15%, or 10%, or 5% or something even lower, but with a customer base as large as Apple’s, that is still a lot of people that may not be buying iPhones the next time they do, or might but will be dissatisfied, and express this dissatisfaction to their social groups. It still tarnishes the brand. If this were the only thing that tarnished Apple’s brand in recent years it might be fine, but it’s not and the removal of the headphone jack didn’t happen in a vacuum.
joering2 8y ago
Im curious: can you give me example of how you would use a vacuum tube port on your iphone? Here is my story: i left my cruise cabin in the middle of the night and went to the bow. In shock I discovered it was almost as bright as a daylight - oh my the full moon looks beautiful. I was alone and played the titanic scene for a monent. Imagine me alone, warm summer night, carribeans, full moon and cruise ship gliding through quiet ocean. Perfect moment hard to repeat with all these circumstances. I immediately reach out to my pocket to put headsets on just to listen to some Leonard Cohen’s songs. Imagine my shock when I realized I forgot the iphone’s jack adapter ;(
- saagarjha 8y ago
  > can you give me example of how you would use a vacuum tube port on your iphone? Cleaning up crumbs?

briandear 8y ago

I don’t use it. I use AirPods or Beats. I’m not doing studio mixing or mastering on my iPhone, so being able to use $1000 wired reference headphones isn’t a use case I care about. Even on my laptop, I use an Apogee interface when I need perfect wired audio. I realize that some people do care about the headphone jack, but that’s quixkly going the way of the floppy drive for most users.

vesak 8y ago

Nah, the headphone jack can move to the history books already. They oughta replace it with something standard, though, like USB-C. Bluetooth isn't an acceptable total replacement as long as batteries add bulk and need to be recharged. When that's fixed, Bluetooth everywhere will be fine also.

xxs 8y ago
Bluetooth has lag, which makes it useless for playing instruments (say guitar). Analog jacks are a nice feature, moving the DAC through another interface doesn't solve much.

eeeeeeeeeeeee 8y ago

Nope. The average consumer simply does not care. This is a mobile device, not an audiophile device. And more and more devices are wireless now.