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How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? I never understood the whole concept of “bounty hunters” in the US it’s not the Wild

How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? I never understood the whole concept of “bounty hunters” in the US it’s not the Wild West anymore. The problem here is that “fugitive recovery” doesn’t need to meet any of the standards normal law enforcement does and unless they kill someone or injure bystanders there likely won’t be an investigation into their conduct and even if there is one the result is often that at worse that could happen is then loosing their license. Criminal investigations against fugitive recovery agents are pretty darn rare and there is no internal affairs or any body that really investigates their conduct on a regular basis. I’m pretty sure that a large amount of these people violate much more than the privacy of their targets on a regular basis.

casefields 8y ago
The US can still issue letters of marque and reprisal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque
User23 8y ago
The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent. As for the privacy aspect, well online privacy is observably a fiction and it always has been. Only naifs and fools believe otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence. Sure there ought to be privacy online in some idealistic sense, but there isn’t in reality so act accordingly.
- dogma1138 8y ago
  >The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent. I somehow doubt that's what they make the money on because they make money on bail skippers usually a percentage of the set bail. In any case if you need someone to appear in court there is something we call a police force which should be used.
  - User23 8y ago
    You do realize the fugitives in question voluntarily entered into a contract with the bondsman right? Frankly, getting driven to the court appearance is a mild and totally appropriate response to the default. It’s way better for the fugitive than having the marshals called in.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      As far as I am aware the marshals are called only in federal cases or cases where state lines are crossed, in all other cases it would be your local sherif department. We have contract law for a reason any contract can be made illegal regardless if someone has went into it of their own volition or not. By this definition we can also legalize slavery or indentured servitude, not to mention that I wouldn't call a situation were the choice is either debt or prison having freedom.
- Semaphor 8y ago
  There are one or two bounty hunters live streaming their job at twitch. The vast majority of their job is sitting in a car, driving. But it usually doesn't seem to involve showing up at an "addict/drunk’s door"
zorga 8y ago
> How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? Then you'd have to give up being able to afford bail; without bounty hunters, bondsman would have no recourse when you didn't show up to court and thus not much incentive to loan you bail money. You're not being legally kidnapped, you agreed to those terms when you borrowed the bond money for bail.
- pjc50 8y ago
  The bail money isn't an essential part of the system either. Most other countries have radically different systems; in the U.K. it's unconditional and free for minor offenses with escalating conditions (and violence may result in no bail at all). https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail
  - zorga 8y ago
    It's essential in a system where changes to how government operates largely aren't possible due to partisan divides; bondsman are a free market solution to absurd government policies on bail. When you can't fix the government, you go around them. btw, that wasn't me that down voted you.
    - dogma1138 8y ago
      The majority of bail isn’t prescribed at the federal level plenty of states can go way with it if they wanted too. The whole concept of bail shouldn’t have a place in a modern society.
      - zorga 8y ago
        No one said anything about the federal government; state governments are just as absurd and just as divided.
        learc83 8y ago
        The majority of states are completely controlled by one party (the majority of the legislature and the governor are belong to the same party), and only one state has a split legislature.
me_again 8y ago
The person writing the article was able to obtain data despite not even being a "real bounty hunter" (whatever that is). And it seems entirely plausible for a stalker/abusive ex/etc) to obtain the same data. So I think the collection and resale of the data remains an issue regardless of the bail bond/bounty hunter aspect.
NeedMoreTea 8y ago
> it’s not the Wild West anymore They didn't get that memo. The mentality and folklore is that it still is. Laws, politics, government, privacy, policing, social mores, business and especially foreign policy all seem to retain the idea they are a frontier society blessed with Manifest Destiny. Their way, however flawed, is the only way etc etc.
jijji 8y ago
making a citizens arrest is not the same as kidnapping... anyone can make a citizens arrest if a crime is being committed, this is perfectly legal. Kidnapping is when you detain someone who has not committed a crime.
mhb 8y ago
The Fugitive: Evidence on Public Versus Private Law Enforcement from Bail Jumping https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18862432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18862432
- endymi0n 8y ago
  Know what's even more effective and cheap than Private Law Enforcement? Torturing suspects until they confess and shooting them on the spot if they are guilty. My point is, this is not about effectiveness, but about legality. A constitutional democracy needs to stay constitutional and legal in its ways of delivering justice, otherwise it's not a constitutional democracy anymore but an anarchy. Giving private individuals the right to legally kidnap people, as well as massive privacy violations like stated in the OP's article — without any oversight — at least to me looks like a massive violation of the Fourth Amendment.
adrianN 8y ago
I agree with you, but that seems to be a different issue. We'd have to think about data even if bounty hunters wouldn't exist.

casefields 8y ago

The US can still issue letters of marque and reprisal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Letter_of_marque

User23 8y ago

The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent. As for the privacy aspect, well online privacy is observably a fiction and it always has been. Only naifs and fools believe otherwise in the face of overwhelming evidence. Sure there ought to be privacy online in some idealistic sense, but there isn’t in reality so act accordingly.

dogma1138 8y ago
>The vast majority of bounty hunting cases are going to the addict/drunk’s door and reminding him he’s got a hearing to be at. The kind of glorifications you see on the teevee are virtually nonexistent. I somehow doubt that's what they make the money on because they make money on bail skippers usually a percentage of the set bail. In any case if you need someone to appear in court there is something we call a police force which should be used.
- User23 8y ago
  You do realize the fugitives in question voluntarily entered into a contract with the bondsman right? Frankly, getting driven to the court appearance is a mild and totally appropriate response to the default. It’s way better for the fugitive than having the marshals called in.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    As far as I am aware the marshals are called only in federal cases or cases where state lines are crossed, in all other cases it would be your local sherif department. We have contract law for a reason any contract can be made illegal regardless if someone has went into it of their own volition or not. By this definition we can also legalize slavery or indentured servitude, not to mention that I wouldn't call a situation were the choice is either debt or prison having freedom.
Semaphor 8y ago
There are one or two bounty hunters live streaming their job at twitch. The vast majority of their job is sitting in a car, driving. But it usually doesn't seem to involve showing up at an "addict/drunk’s door"

zorga 8y ago

> How about we start with not allowing people to legally kidnap individuals? Then you'd have to give up being able to afford bail; without bounty hunters, bondsman would have no recourse when you didn't show up to court and thus not much incentive to loan you bail money. You're not being legally kidnapped, you agreed to those terms when you borrowed the bond money for bail.

pjc50 8y ago
The bail money isn't an essential part of the system either. Most other countries have radically different systems; in the U.K. it's unconditional and free for minor offenses with escalating conditions (and violence may result in no bail at all). https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal-guidance/bail
- zorga 8y ago
  It's essential in a system where changes to how government operates largely aren't possible due to partisan divides; bondsman are a free market solution to absurd government policies on bail. When you can't fix the government, you go around them. btw, that wasn't me that down voted you.
  - dogma1138 8y ago
    The majority of bail isn’t prescribed at the federal level plenty of states can go way with it if they wanted too. The whole concept of bail shouldn’t have a place in a modern society.
    - zorga 8y ago
      No one said anything about the federal government; state governments are just as absurd and just as divided.
      - learc83 8y ago
        The majority of states are completely controlled by one party (the majority of the legislature and the governor are belong to the same party), and only one state has a split legislature.

me_again 8y ago

The person writing the article was able to obtain data despite not even being a "real bounty hunter" (whatever that is). And it seems entirely plausible for a stalker/abusive ex/etc) to obtain the same data. So I think the collection and resale of the data remains an issue regardless of the bail bond/bounty hunter aspect.

NeedMoreTea 8y ago

> it’s not the Wild West anymore They didn't get that memo. The mentality and folklore is that it still is. Laws, politics, government, privacy, policing, social mores, business and especially foreign policy all seem to retain the idea they are a frontier society blessed with Manifest Destiny. Their way, however flawed, is the only way etc etc.

jijji 8y ago

making a citizens arrest is not the same as kidnapping... anyone can make a citizens arrest if a crime is being committed, this is perfectly legal. Kidnapping is when you detain someone who has not committed a crime.

mhb 8y ago

The Fugitive: Evidence on Public Versus Private Law Enforcement from Bail Jumping https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18862432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18862432

endymi0n 8y ago
Know what's even more effective and cheap than Private Law Enforcement? Torturing suspects until they confess and shooting them on the spot if they are guilty. My point is, this is not about effectiveness, but about legality. A constitutional democracy needs to stay constitutional and legal in its ways of delivering justice, otherwise it's not a constitutional democracy anymore but an anarchy. Giving private individuals the right to legally kidnap people, as well as massive privacy violations like stated in the OP's article — without any oversight — at least to me looks like a massive violation of the Fourth Amendment.

adrianN 8y ago

I agree with you, but that seems to be a different issue. We'd have to think about data even if bounty hunters wouldn't exist.