5 ms·

For being written in 2019, I am surprised that the article had no mention of the existence of Wayland. On my systems I have already moved off of Xorg onto Sway¹

by iod 8y ago

For being written in 2019, I am surprised that the article had no mention of the existence of Wayland. On my systems I have already moved off of Xorg onto Sway¹ as my compositor and window manager and have no intention of going back. Sway has a great programability via it's own swaymsg IPC protocol that allows me to do all the manipulations that I would care to do, and even works on my dual-paned HiDPI 5K monitor. ¹ https://swaywm.org https://swaywm.org

dkersten 8y ago
Oh. I was planning on trying out i3 for the first time this weekend. I assume you’d recommend swaywm instead, given that it says its basically a drop in replacement for i3? What else does it give you that i3 doesn’t, or make it a better choice than i3? Besides being a wayland compositor; or is that the main reason to choose it?
- iod 8y ago
  I came from i3, so I pretty much copied over my i3 config mostly intact. Had to add the output configuration for non-default resolutions. Had to add environment GDK_BACKEND=wayland to applications to tell them to use wayland instead of x11 via Xwayland such as firefox (65 and newer has wayland enbaled by default), vlc, gedit, terminal and anything else that supports wayland. Downsides to Sway is that's it has only just entered beta and doesn't really have nice packaged/maintained releases yet. Also I use X11 gnome-panel overlay on top of the swaybar panel, because I wanted a real taskbar, which is kind of a hack and also why I know about the window manipulation features.
  - dkersten 8y ago
    Thanks!
- nizmow 8y ago
  Presumably yeah, because i3 doesn't work on Wayland.
- p4bl0 8y ago
  A friend of mine recently tried out Wayland and swaywm and blogged about it here: https://a3nm.net/blog/wayland.html https://a3nm.net/blog/wayland.html. It might interest you :).
- adrusi 8y ago
  Sway should have all the benefits that come with being a Wayland compositor, like security and less screen tearing. It's also got a few extra features. Here's a few that I find neat: Window drag-and-drop (a bit janky still, but functional) Including other files in the config file (this is important for my idiosyncratic usage) Input/output configuration. Since Sway doesn't have Xorg running, it's responsible for configuring keyboard/mouse/monitors. This is well documented and very simple to do for simple use cases (and more complex use cases can be supported via IPC). I much prefer this to the clusterfuck you get with X. You also lose a couple features from i3 though: Layout save/restore (this feature won't be ported, but it's possible to achieve the same effect using IPC). Tools like xbindkeys, xdotool don't work. If you find some unusual case where you can't set up a keybinding in the sway config, you're out of luck. This is the cost of Wayland's security advantages.
- zdragnar 8y ago
  I went back to i3 after trying sway because I couldn't get screen sharing to work in video calls, no matter what I tried. There were a few other bugs, but that was the only show stopper for me.
MisterTea 8y ago
For being an article about X windows tools, I don't see why the author would need to.
- Redoubts 8y ago
  Is this even that compelling? X forwarding always sucked for me unless I was on the same switch as the source device.
Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
We're glad you like it :)
- 7e 8y ago
  I can’t wait until it supports Vulkan and thus runs on Nvidia.
pmarin 8y ago
It’s 2019 and I still want network transparency and a system not driven by security nazis.
- ufo 8y ago
  Network transparency isn't as useful now that most apps use toolkits like gtk or qt instead of raw X drawing primitives. The toolkits render the UI into a pixel buffer, which takes a lot of bandwidth over the network.
  - pmarin 8y ago
    That is not an excuse to don’t make the protocol network transparent. If people can stream an HD game to their living room TV I don’t think a desktop application have to be much different.
    - adrusi 8y ago
      There's video compression going on when they do that. If that's what you want, VNC works just fine.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
- Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
  No one is really interested in doing the work for you, but we're interested in helping you if you want to put in the work yourself. It's possible in theory and wouldn't even be terribly difficult.
malvosenior 8y ago
I want to use Wayland so bad, sadly I like millions of other people have an Nvidia graphics card so am stuck with X11 for the foreseeable future. Sadly this problem will be recognized as "wontfix" by both Wayland developers and Nvidia.
nerdponx 8y ago
FWIW I couldn't get Sway to compile on a totally vanilla Debian installation.
jancsika 8y ago
Discussion unlock question: in a default install how do you take a screenshot using Sway/Wayland?
- iod 8y ago
  Not sure what you mean by default install, but there are Wayland compatible screenshot programs out there such as Green Recorder¹. ¹https://github.com/foss-project/green-recorder https://github.com/foss-project/green-recorder
stelonix 8y ago
I am not. There are some of us who disagree "Wayland is the future". Some of us believe Xorg is great, tried and tested through many battles over the last 20 years. I have no intention or interest in switching to Wayland in the near future, too.
- DonHopkins 8y ago
  Oh, come on. I'm all into retrocomputing, and think there's a place for riced-out Apple ][ emulators, but X-Windows was terrible in comparison to other window systems 20 years ago, and it still is. microM8 Apple II Emulator: https://paleotronic.com/software/microm8/ https://paleotronic.com/software/microm8/ The X-Windows Disaster: https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398ebd47 https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d39... X window managers are as complex and dug into a pit of pointless complexity as the Space Shuttle: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861229 The fundamental problem with X is that it ignored the brilliant idea behind "AJAX", that you should send not a fixed protocol but executable code (like PostScript or JavaScript) to the server to be interpreted in a sandbox. Plus the fact that it has a terrible antique-device-dependent imaging model that views every device like a MicroVAX framebuffer on acid. At the time of the transition from X10 to X11, all these problems and solutions were well and widely known and debated, but X11 chose to ignore those ideas. But other competing window systems like NeWS didn't have those problems, and used much better solutions, which were only later re-discovered, re-implemented and re-branded in yet another layer with the advent of web servers, browsers, HTML, JavaScript, canvas, and "AJAX". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13783967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13783967 NeWS was architecturally similar to what is now called AJAX, except that NeWS coherently: - used PostScript code instead of JavaScript for programming. - used PostScript graphics instead of DHTML and CSS for rendering. - used PostScript data instead of XML and JSON for data representation. But now that there's another Web Browser layer slapped on top of X-Windows (and the terms "client" and "server" switched places), you're stuck with two competing mutually incompatible window managers nested inside of each other, one for the outside frames around apps, and one for the inside tabs around web pages, that don't cooperate with each other, and operate uncannily differently. So none of your desktop apps benefit from any of the features of the web browser (unless they include their own web browser like Electron). And you can't write lightweight apps in a couple pages of script like "Big Brother Eyes" that run in the shared window server, without requiring their own separate external app with a huge runtime like Electron. https://www.donhopkins.com/home/archive/news-tape/fun/eye/eye.ps https://www.donhopkins.com/home/archive/news-tape/fun/eye/ey... Nor can you easily integrate desktop applications and widgets and web pages together with scripts, the way HyperCard, OpenDoc, CyberDog and HyperLook enabled. https://medium.com/@donhopkins/hyperlook-nee-hypernews-nee-goodnews-99f411e58ce4 https://medium.com/@donhopkins/hyperlook-nee-hypernews-nee-g... Here's how the web browser and window manager should work together seamlessly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837730 And this is why a modern window manager should be written in JavaScript, leverage HTML, Canvas and WebGL, and support Accessibility APIs, as well as screen scraping, pattern recognition, screen casting, virtual desktops, overlays, drawing and image composition, input event synthesis, journaling, macros, runtime user customization and scripting, programming by demonstration, tabbed windows, pie menus, etc: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797587 Think of it like augmented reality for virtualizing desktop user interfaces and web pages.

by iod 8y ago

dkersten 8y ago

Oh. I was planning on trying out i3 for the first time this weekend. I assume you’d recommend swaywm instead, given that it says its basically a drop in replacement for i3? What else does it give you that i3 doesn’t, or make it a better choice than i3? Besides being a wayland compositor; or is that the main reason to choose it?

iod 8y ago
I came from i3, so I pretty much copied over my i3 config mostly intact. Had to add the output configuration for non-default resolutions. Had to add environment GDK_BACKEND=wayland to applications to tell them to use wayland instead of x11 via Xwayland such as firefox (65 and newer has wayland enbaled by default), vlc, gedit, terminal and anything else that supports wayland. Downsides to Sway is that's it has only just entered beta and doesn't really have nice packaged/maintained releases yet. Also I use X11 gnome-panel overlay on top of the swaybar panel, because I wanted a real taskbar, which is kind of a hack and also why I know about the window manipulation features.
- dkersten 8y ago
  Thanks!
nizmow 8y ago
Presumably yeah, because i3 doesn't work on Wayland.
p4bl0 8y ago
A friend of mine recently tried out Wayland and swaywm and blogged about it here: https://a3nm.net/blog/wayland.html https://a3nm.net/blog/wayland.html. It might interest you :).
adrusi 8y ago
Sway should have all the benefits that come with being a Wayland compositor, like security and less screen tearing. It's also got a few extra features. Here's a few that I find neat: Window drag-and-drop (a bit janky still, but functional) Including other files in the config file (this is important for my idiosyncratic usage) Input/output configuration. Since Sway doesn't have Xorg running, it's responsible for configuring keyboard/mouse/monitors. This is well documented and very simple to do for simple use cases (and more complex use cases can be supported via IPC). I much prefer this to the clusterfuck you get with X. You also lose a couple features from i3 though: Layout save/restore (this feature won't be ported, but it's possible to achieve the same effect using IPC). Tools like xbindkeys, xdotool don't work. If you find some unusual case where you can't set up a keybinding in the sway config, you're out of luck. This is the cost of Wayland's security advantages.
zdragnar 8y ago
I went back to i3 after trying sway because I couldn't get screen sharing to work in video calls, no matter what I tried. There were a few other bugs, but that was the only show stopper for me.

MisterTea 8y ago

For being an article about X windows tools, I don't see why the author would need to.

Redoubts 8y ago
Is this even that compelling? X forwarding always sucked for me unless I was on the same switch as the source device.

Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago

We're glad you like it :)

7e 8y ago
I can’t wait until it supports Vulkan and thus runs on Nvidia.

pmarin 8y ago

It’s 2019 and I still want network transparency and a system not driven by security nazis.

ufo 8y ago
Network transparency isn't as useful now that most apps use toolkits like gtk or qt instead of raw X drawing primitives. The toolkits render the UI into a pixel buffer, which takes a lot of bandwidth over the network.
- pmarin 8y ago
  That is not an excuse to don’t make the protocol network transparent. If people can stream an HD game to their living room TV I don’t think a desktop application have to be much different.
  - adrusi 8y ago
    There's video compression going on when they do that. If that's what you want, VNC works just fine.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
Sir_Cmpwn 8y ago
No one is really interested in doing the work for you, but we're interested in helping you if you want to put in the work yourself. It's possible in theory and wouldn't even be terribly difficult.

malvosenior 8y ago

I want to use Wayland so bad, sadly I like millions of other people have an Nvidia graphics card so am stuck with X11 for the foreseeable future. Sadly this problem will be recognized as "wontfix" by both Wayland developers and Nvidia.

nerdponx 8y ago

FWIW I couldn't get Sway to compile on a totally vanilla Debian installation.

jancsika 8y ago

Discussion unlock question: in a default install how do you take a screenshot using Sway/Wayland?

iod 8y ago
Not sure what you mean by default install, but there are Wayland compatible screenshot programs out there such as Green Recorder¹. ¹https://github.com/foss-project/green-recorder https://github.com/foss-project/green-recorder

stelonix 8y ago

I am not. There are some of us who disagree "Wayland is the future". Some of us believe Xorg is great, tried and tested through many battles over the last 20 years. I have no intention or interest in switching to Wayland in the near future, too.

DonHopkins 8y ago
Oh, come on. I'm all into retrocomputing, and think there's a place for riced-out Apple ][ emulators, but X-Windows was terrible in comparison to other window systems 20 years ago, and it still is. microM8 Apple II Emulator: https://paleotronic.com/software/microm8/ https://paleotronic.com/software/microm8/ The X-Windows Disaster: https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d398ebd47 https://medium.com/@donhopkins/the-x-windows-disaster-128d39... X window managers are as complex and dug into a pit of pointless complexity as the Space Shuttle: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861229 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861229 The fundamental problem with X is that it ignored the brilliant idea behind "AJAX", that you should send not a fixed protocol but executable code (like PostScript or JavaScript) to the server to be interpreted in a sandbox. Plus the fact that it has a terrible antique-device-dependent imaging model that views every device like a MicroVAX framebuffer on acid. At the time of the transition from X10 to X11, all these problems and solutions were well and widely known and debated, but X11 chose to ignore those ideas. But other competing window systems like NeWS didn't have those problems, and used much better solutions, which were only later re-discovered, re-implemented and re-branded in yet another layer with the advent of web servers, browsers, HTML, JavaScript, canvas, and "AJAX". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13783967 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13783967 NeWS was architecturally similar to what is now called AJAX, except that NeWS coherently: - used PostScript code instead of JavaScript for programming. - used PostScript graphics instead of DHTML and CSS for rendering. - used PostScript data instead of XML and JSON for data representation. But now that there's another Web Browser layer slapped on top of X-Windows (and the terms "client" and "server" switched places), you're stuck with two competing mutually incompatible window managers nested inside of each other, one for the outside frames around apps, and one for the inside tabs around web pages, that don't cooperate with each other, and operate uncannily differently. So none of your desktop apps benefit from any of the features of the web browser (unless they include their own web browser like Electron). And you can't write lightweight apps in a couple pages of script like "Big Brother Eyes" that run in the shared window server, without requiring their own separate external app with a huge runtime like Electron. https://www.donhopkins.com/home/archive/news-tape/fun/eye/eye.ps https://www.donhopkins.com/home/archive/news-tape/fun/eye/ey... Nor can you easily integrate desktop applications and widgets and web pages together with scripts, the way HyperCard, OpenDoc, CyberDog and HyperLook enabled. https://medium.com/@donhopkins/hyperlook-nee-hypernews-nee-goodnews-99f411e58ce4 https://medium.com/@donhopkins/hyperlook-nee-hypernews-nee-g... Here's how the web browser and window manager should work together seamlessly: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837730 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18837730 And this is why a modern window manager should be written in JavaScript, leverage HTML, Canvas and WebGL, and support Accessibility APIs, as well as screen scraping, pattern recognition, screen casting, virtual desktops, overlays, drawing and image composition, input event synthesis, journaling, macros, runtime user customization and scripting, programming by demonstration, tabbed windows, pie menus, etc: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18797587 Think of it like augmented reality for virtualizing desktop user interfaces and web pages.