7 ms·

> VR is where computation becomes human. No keyboards, no monitors, no mice or joysticks, but instead hands, gaze, movement, and voice. The VR optimists undere

by dlkf 8y ago

> VR is where computation becomes human. No keyboards, no monitors, no mice or joysticks, but instead hands, gaze, movement, and voice. The VR optimists underestimate how deeply human it is to manipulate a tool with your hands. It's not a coincidence that the only intelligent mammal is also the only one with opposable thumbs. If voice was actually vastly preferable to the output of a keyboard, it wouldn't be the case that texting is more popular than calls (and that voicemail has more or less gone the way of the betamax). > The simple act of a talented group viewing and marking a large flat surface can change the world. Today, this is not possible without co-location. Are you being sarcastic? I do this every day in Google docs.

karthikvellanki 8y ago
Texting being more common than calls is a pretty bad example. Texting is more popular because it allows asynchronous communication. Calls require both participants to be connected at the same time, which is a big hassle.
- dlkf 8y ago
  That's fair - comparing calls to texts is not apples to apples. But I think the issue is deeper than live vs async: voicemail is fully asynchronous, and it is by far the least popular of the three. I don't think your objection diminishes my main argument, which is that many forms of communication don't receive any optimization from VR - including forms that the VR crowd seems to believe will be revolutionized (e.g. wildermuthn's whiteboard example).
  - reactor 8y ago
    I think part of it's due to the perceived privacy i.e you can 'text' at anytime without bringing any attention from surroundings, but that's not possible with 'calls' when you are in the office or when surrounded with friends/parents/relatives etc.
julius_set 8y ago
Err flaws in your argument but orangutans also have opposable things..
finnthehuman 8y ago
>If voice was actually vastly preferable to the output of a keyboard, it wouldn't be the case that texting is more popular than calls Texting is preferable to voice only when it's a break from human interaction. That's why you call your parents but text the girl you met last weekend. It's not because they're too old to text. If the only way they could communicate with their children was through text, they'd be typing on their phone more than a stereotypical teen. It's because you're comfortable talking to your parents. Even when it's at it's most-uncomfortable, it's still familiar, safe, and never going to be as bad as the painful conversations you've already had with them. You don't need the safety net of putting the phone down, distracting yourself from the conversation by stressing about the conversation, procrastinating, or the flexibility to workshop every response with your friends. For human interaction, voice is vastly preferable.
- dlkf 8y ago
  > For human interaction, voice is vastly preferable. This is trivial or false. If you define "human interaction" as "the sorts of interactions where we'd rather talk" then sure, voice is preferable by definition. On the other hand, if you define it as "interaction between humans" then your own example shows that it depends entirely on the nature of the interaction. Sometimes we'd rather talk and sometimes we'd rather text. I should have originally written "If voice was _always_ preferable to the output of a keyboard". I'm obviously not suggesting that there are no cases where voice is better than sms. What I'm suggesting is that our existing text/chat messaging, CLIs, GUIs etc are much more than a crude approximation of moving things with one's hands (or speaking) which will be obviated by VR. They are, in the appropriate cases, _more_ easy and efficient than moving things with one's hands or speaking.
kruczek 8y ago
> The VR optimists underestimate how deeply human it is to manipulate a tool with your hands. But that's exactly what VR enables. Instead of clicking a button to swing an axe, in VR you can naturally swing that axe with your own hand. Instead of dragging a mouse to draw a line, you can just move your hand. In many cases VR allows to skip that layer of indirection between input (keyboards/mice/joysticks) and output (screen).
- dlkf 8y ago
  > Instead of clicking a button to swing an axe, in VR you can naturally swing that axe with your own hand. I agree. This is exactly the sort of inconsequential activity where VR will really excel. > Instead of dragging a mouse to draw a line, you can just move your hand. Dragging a mouse is "just moving your hand." If you really need less friction in this case, use a touch screen. What do a VR headset and VR hand tracking gloves add? > In many cases VR allows to skip that layer of indirection between input (keyboards/mice/joysticks) and output (screen). I like this point, and I think it might illuminate where the fundamental disagreement is: how many of these cases are there? For most of the things I do with my computer (writing code, email, listening to music, reading articles) I am simply not convinced that there is a layer of indirection. Keyboards, graphical user interfaces, and CLIs are already well-optimized for ease and efficiency in achieving their stated goal. Introducing VR would increase friction rather than remove it.
- dwighttk 8y ago
  You mean you can swing your hand as if there were an axe there. It really is different and that’s why Wii sword fighting was never as good as I hoped.

by dlkf 8y ago

karthikvellanki 8y ago

Texting being more common than calls is a pretty bad example. Texting is more popular because it allows asynchronous communication. Calls require both participants to be connected at the same time, which is a big hassle.

dlkf 8y ago
That's fair - comparing calls to texts is not apples to apples. But I think the issue is deeper than live vs async: voicemail is fully asynchronous, and it is by far the least popular of the three. I don't think your objection diminishes my main argument, which is that many forms of communication don't receive any optimization from VR - including forms that the VR crowd seems to believe will be revolutionized (e.g. wildermuthn's whiteboard example).
- reactor 8y ago
  I think part of it's due to the perceived privacy i.e you can 'text' at anytime without bringing any attention from surroundings, but that's not possible with 'calls' when you are in the office or when surrounded with friends/parents/relatives etc.

julius_set 8y ago

Err flaws in your argument but orangutans also have opposable things..

finnthehuman 8y ago

>If voice was actually vastly preferable to the output of a keyboard, it wouldn't be the case that texting is more popular than calls Texting is preferable to voice only when it's a break from human interaction. That's why you call your parents but text the girl you met last weekend. It's not because they're too old to text. If the only way they could communicate with their children was through text, they'd be typing on their phone more than a stereotypical teen. It's because you're comfortable talking to your parents. Even when it's at it's most-uncomfortable, it's still familiar, safe, and never going to be as bad as the painful conversations you've already had with them. You don't need the safety net of putting the phone down, distracting yourself from the conversation by stressing about the conversation, procrastinating, or the flexibility to workshop every response with your friends. For human interaction, voice is vastly preferable.

dlkf 8y ago
> For human interaction, voice is vastly preferable. This is trivial or false. If you define "human interaction" as "the sorts of interactions where we'd rather talk" then sure, voice is preferable by definition. On the other hand, if you define it as "interaction between humans" then your own example shows that it depends entirely on the nature of the interaction. Sometimes we'd rather talk and sometimes we'd rather text. I should have originally written "If voice was _always_ preferable to the output of a keyboard". I'm obviously not suggesting that there are no cases where voice is better than sms. What I'm suggesting is that our existing text/chat messaging, CLIs, GUIs etc are much more than a crude approximation of moving things with one's hands (or speaking) which will be obviated by VR. They are, in the appropriate cases, _more_ easy and efficient than moving things with one's hands or speaking.

kruczek 8y ago

> The VR optimists underestimate how deeply human it is to manipulate a tool with your hands. But that's exactly what VR enables. Instead of clicking a button to swing an axe, in VR you can naturally swing that axe with your own hand. Instead of dragging a mouse to draw a line, you can just move your hand. In many cases VR allows to skip that layer of indirection between input (keyboards/mice/joysticks) and output (screen).

dlkf 8y ago
> Instead of clicking a button to swing an axe, in VR you can naturally swing that axe with your own hand. I agree. This is exactly the sort of inconsequential activity where VR will really excel. > Instead of dragging a mouse to draw a line, you can just move your hand. Dragging a mouse is "just moving your hand." If you really need less friction in this case, use a touch screen. What do a VR headset and VR hand tracking gloves add? > In many cases VR allows to skip that layer of indirection between input (keyboards/mice/joysticks) and output (screen). I like this point, and I think it might illuminate where the fundamental disagreement is: how many of these cases are there? For most of the things I do with my computer (writing code, email, listening to music, reading articles) I am simply not convinced that there is a layer of indirection. Keyboards, graphical user interfaces, and CLIs are already well-optimized for ease and efficiency in achieving their stated goal. Introducing VR would increase friction rather than remove it.
dwighttk 8y ago
You mean you can swing your hand as if there were an axe there. It really is different and that’s why Wii sword fighting was never as good as I hoped.