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The alternatives are sending them home - or - giving them citizenship. Suppose you do the later - whoops (!) - as soon as the workers are citizens, and employe

The alternatives are sending them home - or - giving them citizenship. Suppose you do the later - whoops (!) - as soon as the workers are citizens, and employers have to pay full benefits, and worry about unions ... then they'll dump such new citizens and hire actual illegal workers! Point being: the price of that cheap labour is a function of their illegal status more than anything. It's a false dynamic. Just enforce basic laws. Americans will do many of those jobs for higher wages, the jobs that can't support higher wages will leave for Mexico and help them out down there, even in that scenario, surpluses come back to the US as well. The real 'long term' answer is just to enforce basic citizenship and employment laws. The answer on healthcare is much more complicated, but probably has more to do with regulating prices etc. than it does expanding medicare/medicaid, which is actually very inefficient compared to other nations, because prices are so high. Single payer, as someone below mentioned, gives the gov the power to negotiate better deals, but you don't necessarily need single payer for that. I'm generally against any kind of real socialization because it always ends up a mess, but in healthcare it seems it's going to be needed to stop the '100 aspirin' problem, among others. More medicare just means more '$100 aspirin' unless it's combined with some other, heavier kind of action. I hope it works out.

nerdponx 8y ago
One issue with this approach is that enforcing labor laws is already difficult.
- losteric 8y ago
  What about offering a reward to unregistered immigrants in exchange for ratting out their employers? Works for other types of illegal labor... maybe a slice of the fine and the option of fast-tracked citizenship. Anyway, policing businesses will always be easier than policing individuals... smaller numbers, immobile, already registered with the state, and they have stronger incentives to obey the law.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  It's very easy to enforce the law, it only takes a little bit of political will.
twtw 8y ago
The alternatives you mention are things that could happen in the future. The alternative 'p1necone brought up is the status quo.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  The 'status quo' is to further develop a 'serf economy' of non-citizens, further ingraining sectarianism, division ... in addition to even racism, massive legal headaches and grey areas, and a burgeoning populism. Asking people to follow very basic and normative laws is the central social artifact of any civilization. Without it ... it's going to be bad. Just enforce the laws. If laws or policies need to be changed, then change them! Say for example, if there's 'very low unemployment' in Cali, and they really need workers, then maybe 1) allow more immigration. 2) have a temporary worker system that's reliably enforced. But otherwise, don't create two sets of laws, two economies, two classes of people. Also, the US should be making considerably more material effort to develop adjacent economies, right across the border - and I mean more than military aid for the federales, and more than just economic aid which is inefficient. A major US investment initiative for example in Baja, in the South, focusing on travel, manufacturing, that ensured physical security, financial security etc.. and maybe a lot of money and effort would come flushing in. Aside from historical narratives of colonialism etc. it could be done, and done well, and it'd be a huge win-win. And FYI this means considerably better healthcare for those living there as well, frankly, probably almost as good as American healthcare for pennies on the dollar. If it were up to par ... you'd even see a boon of medical tourism, for which there is a huge unmet demand simply because it's very risky for folks to go to 'some random place' in Central America they've never heard of that may have no standards. Imagine a set of hospitals and clinics with a high operating standard, and some brand equity, with cheap prices? Now that's a business! But it can only be facilitate with core civic stability which the US (and Canada?) could feasibly help provide. When NAFTA was re-negotiated, I wish they'd have addressed these new, 21st century issues instead of rehashing tariffs on steel and milk ...
dragonwriter 8y ago
> The alternatives are sending them home - or - giving them citizenship No, neither of those are things California can do instead of providing healthcare. > More medicare just means more '$100 aspirin' unless it's combined with some other, heavier kind of action. No, it doesn't. Moreover, this is more Medi-Cal (i.e., Medicaid) not more Medicare. Which also doesn't mean that, but it's a completely different program with different policies.
atomi 8y ago
A lot of housing and infrastructure development done by small businesses just won't get done if the price of labor or material becomes too high. In areas of California where development is rampant and growth is fast paced cheap labor is in high demand.
- sonnyblarney 8y ago
  Yes, if America doesn't have a class of serfs with no healthcare, no rights, who can be treated poorly because they can't complain - a whole bunch of work can't done. However will we survive without our slaves? Sorry, I jest ... but that's the essential nature of the argument. If you make those illegal workers citizens ... then they will be immediately 'too expensive'. Either people are citizens with rights, or are not. Let's not create two systems.
  - atomi 8y ago
    I think you went from a 1 to a 10 real quick. No one is talking about slavery. Here in California there are armies of lawyers making sure immigrants are treated fairly and paid a minimum wage - especially in farm work.

nerdponx 8y ago

One issue with this approach is that enforcing labor laws is already difficult.

losteric 8y ago
What about offering a reward to unregistered immigrants in exchange for ratting out their employers? Works for other types of illegal labor... maybe a slice of the fine and the option of fast-tracked citizenship. Anyway, policing businesses will always be easier than policing individuals... smaller numbers, immobile, already registered with the state, and they have stronger incentives to obey the law.
sonnyblarney 8y ago
It's very easy to enforce the law, it only takes a little bit of political will.

twtw 8y ago

The alternatives you mention are things that could happen in the future. The alternative 'p1necone brought up is the status quo.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
The 'status quo' is to further develop a 'serf economy' of non-citizens, further ingraining sectarianism, division ... in addition to even racism, massive legal headaches and grey areas, and a burgeoning populism. Asking people to follow very basic and normative laws is the central social artifact of any civilization. Without it ... it's going to be bad. Just enforce the laws. If laws or policies need to be changed, then change them! Say for example, if there's 'very low unemployment' in Cali, and they really need workers, then maybe 1) allow more immigration. 2) have a temporary worker system that's reliably enforced. But otherwise, don't create two sets of laws, two economies, two classes of people. Also, the US should be making considerably more material effort to develop adjacent economies, right across the border - and I mean more than military aid for the federales, and more than just economic aid which is inefficient. A major US investment initiative for example in Baja, in the South, focusing on travel, manufacturing, that ensured physical security, financial security etc.. and maybe a lot of money and effort would come flushing in. Aside from historical narratives of colonialism etc. it could be done, and done well, and it'd be a huge win-win. And FYI this means considerably better healthcare for those living there as well, frankly, probably almost as good as American healthcare for pennies on the dollar. If it were up to par ... you'd even see a boon of medical tourism, for which there is a huge unmet demand simply because it's very risky for folks to go to 'some random place' in Central America they've never heard of that may have no standards. Imagine a set of hospitals and clinics with a high operating standard, and some brand equity, with cheap prices? Now that's a business! But it can only be facilitate with core civic stability which the US (and Canada?) could feasibly help provide. When NAFTA was re-negotiated, I wish they'd have addressed these new, 21st century issues instead of rehashing tariffs on steel and milk ...

dragonwriter 8y ago

> The alternatives are sending them home - or - giving them citizenship No, neither of those are things California can do instead of providing healthcare. > More medicare just means more '$100 aspirin' unless it's combined with some other, heavier kind of action. No, it doesn't. Moreover, this is more Medi-Cal (i.e., Medicaid) not more Medicare. Which also doesn't mean that, but it's a completely different program with different policies.

atomi 8y ago

A lot of housing and infrastructure development done by small businesses just won't get done if the price of labor or material becomes too high. In areas of California where development is rampant and growth is fast paced cheap labor is in high demand.

sonnyblarney 8y ago
Yes, if America doesn't have a class of serfs with no healthcare, no rights, who can be treated poorly because they can't complain - a whole bunch of work can't done. However will we survive without our slaves? Sorry, I jest ... but that's the essential nature of the argument. If you make those illegal workers citizens ... then they will be immediately 'too expensive'. Either people are citizens with rights, or are not. Let's not create two systems.
- atomi 8y ago
  I think you went from a 1 to a 10 real quick. No one is talking about slavery. Here in California there are armies of lawyers making sure immigrants are treated fairly and paid a minimum wage - especially in farm work.