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I agree that looking for ideological consistency is a dead end in any large group of people, including for those who campaigned to remain. Some supported the EU

I agree that looking for ideological consistency is a dead end in any large group of people, including for those who campaigned to remain. Some supported the EU project for ideological reasons (it's an ideological, utopian project after all) and others had purely pragmatic concerns. Some who argued for one side have switched to the other in the years since. Third, you are deliberately misrepresenting the nature and state of the EU and it’s negotiating position. There are a clear number of different forms the UK’s relationship with the EU could take That's a very odd claim to make because the EU itself is extremely clear that you're wrong. Here are some excerpts from recent news articles about Theresa May's withdrawal agreement, which the EU is now unanimous in claiming is the only option available at all, that there are no "different forms the UK's relationship could take". Who should I believe? Them or you? - Germany's Europe minister Michael Roth said:"No deal better than the one on the table can be reached." - Luxembourg's Foreign Minister Jean Asselborn said .... ""This deal that is now on the table is the best there is. There is no better deal for this" - Brussels said Mrs May’s Withdrawal Agreement was ‘the best and the only deal possible’ and had been ‘approved, established, achieved’. These statements appear to contradict you. The EU has little incentive to change its underlying principles to reflect the demands of the UK, and expecting them to do so is obviously fantasy mismanagement. Indeed your own position appears to contradict itself. On one hand, there are many possible options with varying degrees of commitment available. On the other, the EU will never abandon its principles. Which, lest we forget, they've said repeatedly means "no cherry picking" i.e. no options. Honesty is in short supply. Hmmmm ... (I would reply but of course, Hacker News has now rate limited me because I got downvoted. This debate will have to play out some other time).

matthewmacleod 8y ago
That's a very odd claim to make because the EU itself is extremely clear that you're wrong. I won’t quite the rest, but I think you have misunderstood the EU’s position on this. Yes, as I said there are different forms the relationship could take. I described some of them. What there isn’t - as various EU bods you quote point out – is any other deal available at this point. It’s done. If the UK had engaged in this process honestly, from the start, then other deals could have been achieved. Remember this graphic published by Barbier? http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/rngs/BRITAIN-EU/01006039065/brexit.jpg http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/rngs/BRITAIN-EU/0100603... I don’t think I’m being at all inconsistent or dishonest here. I’m happy to change my views if I’m wrong. But I haven’t heard a convincing argument that the current situation is the fault of anybody but a comically incompetent UK government.
- repolfx 8y ago
  I did have a big reply typed out yesterday but couldn't post it. Today I'll just observe that - again - what actual member state and Brussels officials are saying is that this is "the best and only deal that could have been achieved". Not - "it's alright but with more time we'll find something better" which is what you're claiming. Again, I don't see how your position matches the reality of what is being said by the people in power. So I think I'm not the one who's misunderstood their position.
  - matthewmacleod 8y ago
    No, that is not what I'm claiming. The EU folk you are quoting are clear that this is the only deal that is available, and that is correct – but those statements are in the context of the red lines established by the UK, and the point in the negotiations that we are now at. First, please refer to the graphic I linked to. It outlines how the conditions established for an EU exit deal by the UK limited the options that were available. These choices were almost entirely on the UK, and they are obvious to anybody with even a passing familiarity with the various bodies and constructs involved. The UK decided what conditions it was not willing to accept – free movement, ECJ jurisdiction; shared trade policy etc. – and the deal which has been achieved is the best deal possible given those constraints. Second, realise that we are now at the end of the negotiation process. There is no appetite for renegotiating a deal under these circumstances. The UK and EU have negotiated for two years; if a different approach had been taken at the beginning of those negotiations, a different deal would have been possible. That is now no longer the case. Both my statement that "a better was possible", and the EU's statements that "no better deal is now possible" are true.
- CaptainZapp 8y ago
  But I haven’t heard a convincing argument that the current situation is the fault of anybody but a comically incompetent UK government. You very obviously don't read Mr. Johnson's Telegraph columns</snark> I agree. The EU was always very clear where their read lines were and never deviated from that. The PM on the other hand made very clear what the UKs red lines are. And does are simply incompatible with what's acceptable for the EU. An ex-member undermining the fundamental principles of the single market is just not on the table.
JAlexoid 8y ago
Of course you're downvoted. Arrogant ignorance is just asking for a downvote. Citing foreign ministers of member states just proves how ignorant you are on EU itself. Again - single market isn't just trade. Read what four freedoms are, aka single market. The options for UK are clear: - if you want to leave customs union, you leave barrier free trading - if you want to restrict labour movement, you leave freedom of goods, services and capital movement UK's real options, with Brexiteers in mind, is CETA++... The position of UK and leavers was that of a deranged husband in divorce - demanding sex, without so much as an inkling of fidelity.
- repolfx 8y ago
  So I'm guilty of "arrogant ignorance" and thus deserving of downvotes, but you describe the entire UK as a "deranged husband in a divorce" and then describe foreign ministers of member states as unciteable in a discussion about the foreign policy of member states? This quality of debate is exactly the sort of thing that led to the Remain campaign losing so badly. I see the slogans and the insults but where are the arguments?

matthewmacleod 8y ago

That's a very odd claim to make because the EU itself is extremely clear that you're wrong. I won’t quite the rest, but I think you have misunderstood the EU’s position on this. Yes, as I said there are different forms the relationship could take. I described some of them. What there isn’t - as various EU bods you quote point out – is any other deal available at this point. It’s done. If the UK had engaged in this process honestly, from the start, then other deals could have been achieved. Remember this graphic published by Barbier? http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/rngs/BRITAIN-EU/01006039065/brexit.jpg http://fingfx.thomsonreuters.com/gfx/rngs/BRITAIN-EU/0100603... I don’t think I’m being at all inconsistent or dishonest here. I’m happy to change my views if I’m wrong. But I haven’t heard a convincing argument that the current situation is the fault of anybody but a comically incompetent UK government.

repolfx 8y ago
I did have a big reply typed out yesterday but couldn't post it. Today I'll just observe that - again - what actual member state and Brussels officials are saying is that this is "the best and only deal that could have been achieved". Not - "it's alright but with more time we'll find something better" which is what you're claiming. Again, I don't see how your position matches the reality of what is being said by the people in power. So I think I'm not the one who's misunderstood their position.
- matthewmacleod 8y ago
  No, that is not what I'm claiming. The EU folk you are quoting are clear that this is the only deal that is available, and that is correct – but those statements are in the context of the red lines established by the UK, and the point in the negotiations that we are now at. First, please refer to the graphic I linked to. It outlines how the conditions established for an EU exit deal by the UK limited the options that were available. These choices were almost entirely on the UK, and they are obvious to anybody with even a passing familiarity with the various bodies and constructs involved. The UK decided what conditions it was not willing to accept – free movement, ECJ jurisdiction; shared trade policy etc. – and the deal which has been achieved is the best deal possible given those constraints. Second, realise that we are now at the end of the negotiation process. There is no appetite for renegotiating a deal under these circumstances. The UK and EU have negotiated for two years; if a different approach had been taken at the beginning of those negotiations, a different deal would have been possible. That is now no longer the case. Both my statement that "a better was possible", and the EU's statements that "no better deal is now possible" are true.
CaptainZapp 8y ago
But I haven’t heard a convincing argument that the current situation is the fault of anybody but a comically incompetent UK government. You very obviously don't read Mr. Johnson's Telegraph columns</snark> I agree. The EU was always very clear where their read lines were and never deviated from that. The PM on the other hand made very clear what the UKs red lines are. And does are simply incompatible with what's acceptable for the EU. An ex-member undermining the fundamental principles of the single market is just not on the table.

JAlexoid 8y ago

Of course you're downvoted. Arrogant ignorance is just asking for a downvote. Citing foreign ministers of member states just proves how ignorant you are on EU itself. Again - single market isn't just trade. Read what four freedoms are, aka single market. The options for UK are clear: - if you want to leave customs union, you leave barrier free trading - if you want to restrict labour movement, you leave freedom of goods, services and capital movement UK's real options, with Brexiteers in mind, is CETA++... The position of UK and leavers was that of a deranged husband in divorce - demanding sex, without so much as an inkling of fidelity.

repolfx 8y ago
So I'm guilty of "arrogant ignorance" and thus deserving of downvotes, but you describe the entire UK as a "deranged husband in a divorce" and then describe foreign ministers of member states as unciteable in a discussion about the foreign policy of member states? This quality of debate is exactly the sort of thing that led to the Remain campaign losing so badly. I see the slogans and the insults but where are the arguments?