7 ms·

He Disparaged the Police on Facebook, So They Arrested Him

65 points by augustocallejas 8y ago

thedaemon 8y ago
How come no one has started multiple law-suits against Donald Trump for libel? All he does is say false statements.
- jessaustin 8y ago
  Does everything have to be about Trump? Sometimes I suspect that all the hate is really just a particular sort of love. You love to inject him into discussions in which he doesn't belong.
  - 13415 8y ago
    I think OP has a valid point.
    - Taylor_OD 8y ago
      But it's only tangentially related to the article posted.
      - yayana 8y ago
        It seems to get into the impossibility of such a law being at the discretion of law enforcement. Should he be arrested at the next NH primary for his knowingly false statements and their relationship to an actual bomb threat? Probably not, so probably this law is illegal.
        darkpuma 8y ago
        Criminal libel laws are at the discretion of law enforcement and prosecutors. Anybody can bring a civil suit for libel. Only 23 states have criminal defamation laws. The problems with defamation being criminal is what the article is about.
        yayana 8y ago
        I don't see what you think I missed. It's annoying to always use Trump, but it makes sense to use the person in the position of President to demonstrate that the law without discretion would net big fish. IMO, law enforcement/DA discretion is ALWAYS a violation of civil rights. Laws would be less prevalent and less severe if they had to be applied equally. If you go through the mental exercise in obvious cases then you end up with a model of how the American System achieves discrimination through populist control of the executive branches and discretion, bypassing constitutional equality for minorities or the otherwise unpopular.
        darkpuma 8y ago
        What you're missing is that civil defamation suits are not at the discretion of prosecutors.
        yayana 8y ago
        I am talking about whether Trump is theoretically guilty or not guilty of criminal defemation if 1(NH) or more (23) states claimed their jurisdiction applied and why that being discretionary in those states is therefore extremely problematic to our civic system. I'm not sure why you are interested in civil defemation law.
        darkpuma 8y ago
        Trump has certainly defamed many people in a civil manner as well. If you understand why there seem to be so few civil suits against Trump for defamation, you will be closer to understanding why there are so few criminal cases against him for the same.
        cruella_deville 8y ago
        the adage "love, trumps hate" becomes "love Trump's hate."
        8y ago
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
- bovermyer 8y ago
  This comment is not relevant to the article in question. Edit: if you really want to know the answer to this question, then research whether a sitting president can be indicted.
- mmmmmmmmm 8y ago
  Probably because he isn't actually making libelous statements. It's not false just because you don't like it.
jackallis 8y ago
as a brown guy, i will never have the balls big enough to make comments like this.
- AnimalMuppet 8y ago
  As a white guy, I mourn that people of color feel that making comments like this requires courage. It shouldn't require courage at all, for anybody, regardless of color or race or religion or gender or anything. I mourn that people like you have to be more careful in interactions with police or other authorities. It just stinks.
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
  - jackallis 8y ago
    I get your sentiment, but like all color folks who say to white folks, " you just don't understand what it means to be colored in everyday life." But you should not be ashamed to be white.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
bovermyer 8y ago
Just because he was arrested for criminal libel doesn't mean he will be convicted of it. The article does a good job of presenting a high level overview of criminal libel: what it is, what the arguments around it are, and so forth. Read the whole thing.
- johnnyfaehell 8y ago
  Yea, but the princple remains. He bad mouthed the police so they arrested for it. In a country like the US where it appears that unduly high bails are set. (thousands of dollars for people on welfare may as well be a million) Getting arrested could easily mean the lose of freedom for a extended period of time. If that is the penalty for saying something, true or false. It suddenly becomes something people are afraid to do.
  - qbz 8y ago
    He said an officer is corrupt and that the chief is covering it up. The NYT calls this "disparaging", but it clearly goes way beyond badmouthing.
    - reaperducer 8y ago
      Imagine a world where everyone who accused a public servant of being corrupt, or covering things up was arrested. Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season.
      - coldtea 8y ago
        >Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season Sounds like a better world!
        darkpuma 8y ago
        Every critic of those politicians would be in jail too.
nsedlet 8y ago
This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to their viewers. Other countries with stronger libel laws (like the UK) don't have nearly as bad a problem, and I can't help but feel like it's related. Obviously the UK has its own issues but it feels much saner to me. In this case, accusing a specific police officer of being corrupt with zero evidence IS an awful thing to do. It's different from saying that a department is corrupt, etc. There are tons of examples of police abusing their power but this just doesn't seem like one. Note that the standard for criminal libel requires the person to know they are lying, and that has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- analyst74 8y ago
  There is also massive corruption problem in the police force, because citizens don't really have effective ways to "watch the watchers". And stronger libel law will definitely be used against people who criticize the police, rightly or wrongly. That being said, misinformation is also a huge problem. So maybe we'll have to find other ways to more effectively hold individuals accountable, whether they're abusing institutional power or spreading misinformation.
  - umvi 8y ago
    > There is also massive corruption problem in the police force Is this really true or just the impression given by cherry-picking the worst possible cases nation wide and amplifying them via media? Define "massive". If you got pulled over, would you be legitimately worried about being tazed or abused?
    - Ar-Curunir 8y ago

thedaemon 8y ago

How come no one has started multiple law-suits against Donald Trump for libel? All he does is say false statements.

jessaustin 8y ago
Does everything have to be about Trump? Sometimes I suspect that all the hate is really just a particular sort of love. You love to inject him into discussions in which he doesn't belong.
- 13415 8y ago
  I think OP has a valid point.
  - Taylor_OD 8y ago
    But it's only tangentially related to the article posted.
    - yayana 8y ago
      It seems to get into the impossibility of such a law being at the discretion of law enforcement. Should he be arrested at the next NH primary for his knowingly false statements and their relationship to an actual bomb threat? Probably not, so probably this law is illegal.
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        Criminal libel laws are at the discretion of law enforcement and prosecutors. Anybody can bring a civil suit for libel. Only 23 states have criminal defamation laws. The problems with defamation being criminal is what the article is about.
        yayana 8y ago
        I don't see what you think I missed. It's annoying to always use Trump, but it makes sense to use the person in the position of President to demonstrate that the law without discretion would net big fish. IMO, law enforcement/DA discretion is ALWAYS a violation of civil rights. Laws would be less prevalent and less severe if they had to be applied equally. If you go through the mental exercise in obvious cases then you end up with a model of how the American System achieves discrimination through populist control of the executive branches and discretion, bypassing constitutional equality for minorities or the otherwise unpopular.
        darkpuma 8y ago
        What you're missing is that civil defamation suits are not at the discretion of prosecutors.
        yayana 8y ago
        I am talking about whether Trump is theoretically guilty or not guilty of criminal defemation if 1(NH) or more (23) states claimed their jurisdiction applied and why that being discretionary in those states is therefore extremely problematic to our civic system. I'm not sure why you are interested in civil defemation law.
        darkpuma 8y ago
        Trump has certainly defamed many people in a civil manner as well. If you understand why there seem to be so few civil suits against Trump for defamation, you will be closer to understanding why there are so few criminal cases against him for the same.
        cruella_deville 8y ago
        the adage "love, trumps hate" becomes "love Trump's hate."
        8y ago
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
bovermyer 8y ago
This comment is not relevant to the article in question. Edit: if you really want to know the answer to this question, then research whether a sitting president can be indicted.
mmmmmmmmm 8y ago
Probably because he isn't actually making libelous statements. It's not false just because you don't like it.

jackallis 8y ago

as a brown guy, i will never have the balls big enough to make comments like this.

AnimalMuppet 8y ago
As a white guy, I mourn that people of color feel that making comments like this requires courage. It shouldn't require courage at all, for anybody, regardless of color or race or religion or gender or anything. I mourn that people like you have to be more careful in interactions with police or other authorities. It just stinks.
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- jackallis 8y ago
  I get your sentiment, but like all color folks who say to white folks, " you just don't understand what it means to be colored in everyday life." But you should not be ashamed to be white.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

bovermyer 8y ago

Just because he was arrested for criminal libel doesn't mean he will be convicted of it. The article does a good job of presenting a high level overview of criminal libel: what it is, what the arguments around it are, and so forth. Read the whole thing.

johnnyfaehell 8y ago
Yea, but the princple remains. He bad mouthed the police so they arrested for it. In a country like the US where it appears that unduly high bails are set. (thousands of dollars for people on welfare may as well be a million) Getting arrested could easily mean the lose of freedom for a extended period of time. If that is the penalty for saying something, true or false. It suddenly becomes something people are afraid to do.
- qbz 8y ago
  He said an officer is corrupt and that the chief is covering it up. The NYT calls this "disparaging", but it clearly goes way beyond badmouthing.
  - reaperducer 8y ago
    Imagine a world where everyone who accused a public servant of being corrupt, or covering things up was arrested. Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season.
    - coldtea 8y ago
      >Every politician would be in jail after each campaign season Sounds like a better world!
      - darkpuma 8y ago
        Every critic of those politicians would be in jail too.

nsedlet 8y ago

This is probably an unpopular opinion, and I'd want to think this through more, but I've been feeling recently that libel laws in the U.S. ought to be stronger. We have a massive problem with propagandists (especially on the right, but also the left) using blatant lies to manipulate opinion. The net result is a huge amount of anger & distrust. The media is a mess. Even mainstream outlets like Fox routinely lie to their viewers. Other countries with stronger libel laws (like the UK) don't have nearly as bad a problem, and I can't help but feel like it's related. Obviously the UK has its own issues but it feels much saner to me. In this case, accusing a specific police officer of being corrupt with zero evidence IS an awful thing to do. It's different from saying that a department is corrupt, etc. There are tons of examples of police abusing their power but this just doesn't seem like one. Note that the standard for criminal libel requires the person to know they are lying, and that has to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
analyst74 8y ago
There is also massive corruption problem in the police force, because citizens don't really have effective ways to "watch the watchers". And stronger libel law will definitely be used against people who criticize the police, rightly or wrongly. That being said, misinformation is also a huge problem. So maybe we'll have to find other ways to more effectively hold individuals accountable, whether they're abusing institutional power or spreading misinformation.
- umvi 8y ago
  > There is also massive corruption problem in the police force Is this really true or just the impression given by cherry-picking the worst possible cases nation wide and amplifying them via media? Define "massive". If you got pulled over, would you be legitimately worried about being tazed or abused?
  - Ar-Curunir 8y ago