5 ms·

> combined with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say half, of the population has no interest in progressing Different people have different defini

by umvi 8y ago

> combined with recent evidence suggesting that a good chunk, say half, of the population has no interest in progressing Different people have different definitions of "progress". Your definition of progress might not align with mine. That doesn't mean I am not interested in progress, just that I believe we should be progressing in a different (possibly even diametrical) direction than you believe we should be progressing.

skrowl 8y ago
Clearly OP means agreeing with his agenda here. Anything contrary to his agenda is not progress, but going backwards. "around half" is a veiled hit on people who voted for President Trump.
- rootusrootus 8y ago
  No, I just mean progress. We have data, we could be using it to improve. But instead, we watch other countries leapfrog us in quantifiable ways while we point fingers at each other and accuse 'the other side' of being the real problem. And we are so enamored with ourselves being special that we won't even consider ideas from other countries which have successfully dealt with similar problems. It is very frustrating. And I don't care which side politically you are on, you are only part of the problem from my perspective if you care more about winning than actually making better policy.
eli_gottlieb 8y ago
That's fine to say, but it ignores the problem of minority rule. If we all take a big vote, and most people want Progress(A), you don't have the ethical right to jump up and down or put a gun to the rest of our heads insisting that we instead do Progress(B). Maybe Progress(B) is a lovely thing for you. The rest of us, however, don't like it very much, and didn't vote for it.
- jedmeyers 8y ago
  If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t have the right for that either, even if your plan is to equally distribute it for the “good of everyone”. For some people who went through the hell of communism it is the opposite of progress.
  - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
    >If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t have the right for that either, Hold on, let me check something... "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." I rather think we do have that right. Human rights for minorities are indeed a thing, but they aren't a thing that gives you (or anyone else) a fully general right to rule over the majority, nor a fully general right to treat the government as illegitimate when it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas.
    - jedmeyers 8y ago
      > it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas. So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law enforcement, correct? Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to decide the policy?
      - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
        >So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law enforcement, correct? Yes, of course. If enforcing the law as written involves doing Bad Things, the law should be changed, but if we aren't democratically deciding to change it, then it's on us what it involves. Mind, there's been plenty of support for the DREAM Act for quite a while now, so... >Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to decide the policy? The basic ethical grounds for representative democracy, without which the US government has no legitimacy, no matter how many pieces of paper anyone waves around.

by umvi 8y ago

skrowl 8y ago

Clearly OP means agreeing with his agenda here. Anything contrary to his agenda is not progress, but going backwards. "around half" is a veiled hit on people who voted for President Trump.

rootusrootus 8y ago
No, I just mean progress. We have data, we could be using it to improve. But instead, we watch other countries leapfrog us in quantifiable ways while we point fingers at each other and accuse 'the other side' of being the real problem. And we are so enamored with ourselves being special that we won't even consider ideas from other countries which have successfully dealt with similar problems. It is very frustrating. And I don't care which side politically you are on, you are only part of the problem from my perspective if you care more about winning than actually making better policy.

eli_gottlieb 8y ago

That's fine to say, but it ignores the problem of minority rule. If we all take a big vote, and most people want Progress(A), you don't have the ethical right to jump up and down or put a gun to the rest of our heads insisting that we instead do Progress(B). Maybe Progress(B) is a lovely thing for you. The rest of us, however, don't like it very much, and didn't vote for it.

jedmeyers 8y ago
If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t have the right for that either, even if your plan is to equally distribute it for the “good of everyone”. For some people who went through the hell of communism it is the opposite of progress.
- eli_gottlieb 8y ago
  >If Progress(A) means taking stuff from a minority group, then sorry you don’t have the right for that either, Hold on, let me check something... "The Congress shall have power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration." I rather think we do have that right. Human rights for minorities are indeed a thing, but they aren't a thing that gives you (or anyone else) a fully general right to rule over the majority, nor a fully general right to treat the government as illegitimate when it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas.
  - jedmeyers 8y ago
    > it uses its constitutionally enumerated powers to go against your ideas. So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law enforcement, correct? Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to decide the policy?
    - eli_gottlieb 8y ago
      >So let me clarify your position a bit: you do support immigration law enforcement, correct? Yes, of course. If enforcing the law as written involves doing Bad Things, the law should be changed, but if we aren't democratically deciding to change it, then it's on us what it involves. Mind, there's been plenty of support for the DREAM Act for quite a while now, so... >Also where did you get the idea that the majority of people in the US gets to decide the policy? The basic ethical grounds for representative democracy, without which the US government has no legitimacy, no matter how many pieces of paper anyone waves around.