4 ms·

For many people it was about regaining control of borders and reducing immigration. Personally I'm willing to trade off being a little poorer in exchange for be

For many people it was about regaining control of borders and reducing immigration. Personally I'm willing to trade off being a little poorer in exchange for being a sovereign nation once again, although the current direction of travel makes it look like we will be getting Brino i.e. Brexit in name only, about which by the way I'm staggered at how blithely people are willing to discard democracy when the result doesn't go their way.

pjc50 8y ago
> regaining control of borders What does this actually mean specifically? What policy changes do you want that you think you can't have within the EU? > sovereign nation once again The UK is sovereign. It's just made some international agreements to align with other countries. If you think the EU is bad for this, wait until you see things like TTIP: all of the legislative override, ability to sue the state in foreign courts etc, and none of the democracy.
- growlist 8y ago
  A points based immigration policy would be a nice start. > The UK is sovereign. It's just made some international agreements to align with other countries. If you think the EU is bad for this, wait until you see things like TTIP: all of the legislative override, ability to sue the state in foreign courts etc, and none of the democracy. One wonders how those poor impoverished nations outside of the big trading blocs survive!
  - pjc50 8y ago
    > A points based immigration policy would be a nice start. How aware are you of the current UK visa tier system? What kinds of people do you think are currently immigrating that would not be eligible under a points based system? >One wonders how those poor impoverished nations outside of the big trading blocs survive! Generally they are poor and impoverished, yes. Or they have a deal with the EU and US. Or are tiny exceptions like Singapore.
    - growlist 8y ago
      > Generally they are poor and impoverished, yes. Or they have a deal with the EU and US. Or are tiny exceptions like Singapore. This idea that the UK is inevitably doomed outside of the EU is such a canard - fact is, it cannot be known either way until it happens.
      - JAlexoid 8y ago
        Of course it's not doomed. But your position on "too much immigrants" is xenophobic, regardless of how you see it. You're literally ignoring the fact, that most congestion in London and S/E England is due to internal migration. You're blaming EU migrants for your discomfort, the ones that are most likely to work for a bit and go back to their countries.
        growlist 8y ago
        EU immigration certainly doesn't help. Also please don't throw insults around without foundation, which I see that you've been able to do with impunity, which says something about this forum.
ticmasta 8y ago
> sovereign nation once again As a Canadian (and I imagine citizen of pretty much any non-european commonwealth country) I had to chuckle a bit. After being treated like a resource-extraction milking machine historically and then maintaining this pseudo-ceremonial allegiance to a royal head of state it seems funny for someone from the mothership to bemoan a loss of sovereignty and self-determination. No ill-will intended, just struck me as humorous in what is in all other regards a very humorless situation...
- growlist 8y ago
  I'm basically a small c conservative, and I think the country is a far less pleasant place to live than when I grew up. If we want mass immigration we also need a massive house building programme, which might involve concreting over the countryside, or perhaps a proper regional policy. I don't see how we can have one without the other. If we were as big as Canada it would be a different story! I went to the beach with the dog on New Year's day - there were thousands of other people, the roads were clogged, and it spoiled the experience. Buying in the countryside is often not an option depending on your career, because many jobs are only available in the South East, hence you are forced to live in a hyper-competitive area, fighting it out with millions of others for your tiny slice of England. I'm just trying to explain that my reasons for wanting lower immigration have nothing to do with xenophobia, and everything to do with the realities of life in the SE UK. Injecting millions more people is going to make it a massive miserable conurbation, in my view.
  - throwaway-hn123 8y ago
    > I'm just trying to explain that my reasons for wanting lower immigration have nothing to do with xenophobia I'm afraid you've failed quite miserably.
  - steve_gh 8y ago
    It's a little more nuanced than that ... the SE of England was generally the area most in favour of Remain. Pretty much all of rural England outside of the pull of London voted to Leave. I see Brexit as the losers in the globalization push taking their revenge on the winners.
PunchTornado 8y ago
is Canada not a sovereign nation because it is part of NAFTA?
- jermaustin1 8y ago
  Not to defend GP's post, but NAFTA and EU are vastly different. Without proper visas, I cannot settle in Canada, I cannot work in Canada, I cannot vacation for longer than 6 months in Canada. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to. I think it would be nice to move freely between the NAFTA nations.
  - JAlexoid 8y ago
    Free Trade is a shitty thing, without labour migration. As in - if Carrier moved their A/C to Mexico, then some people could move with it... reducing the impact on the community.
yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
Regaining control of our borders? Have you ever been to a UK border? We’re not in Shengen. You can’t just stroll across. This trope about discarding democracy is tired too. A democracy isn’t “choose once and keep forever”. We are free to change our minds. Or are you surprised that we have general elections every so often?
- growlist 8y ago
  > This trope about discarding democracy is tired too Imagine the contempt with which calls for a second referendum would be treated if it were remain that had won. Not to mention, we were told that the vote would settle the issue for a generation. Oh whoops, apparently only if we voted remain!
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    But that was exactly Farage’s plan. How did you miss this?
    - growlist 8y ago
      Yes but I seriously doubt it would have gone anywhere.

pjc50 8y ago

> regaining control of borders What does this actually mean specifically? What policy changes do you want that you think you can't have within the EU? > sovereign nation once again The UK is sovereign. It's just made some international agreements to align with other countries. If you think the EU is bad for this, wait until you see things like TTIP: all of the legislative override, ability to sue the state in foreign courts etc, and none of the democracy.

growlist 8y ago
A points based immigration policy would be a nice start. > The UK is sovereign. It's just made some international agreements to align with other countries. If you think the EU is bad for this, wait until you see things like TTIP: all of the legislative override, ability to sue the state in foreign courts etc, and none of the democracy. One wonders how those poor impoverished nations outside of the big trading blocs survive!
- pjc50 8y ago
  > A points based immigration policy would be a nice start. How aware are you of the current UK visa tier system? What kinds of people do you think are currently immigrating that would not be eligible under a points based system? >One wonders how those poor impoverished nations outside of the big trading blocs survive! Generally they are poor and impoverished, yes. Or they have a deal with the EU and US. Or are tiny exceptions like Singapore.
  - growlist 8y ago
    > Generally they are poor and impoverished, yes. Or they have a deal with the EU and US. Or are tiny exceptions like Singapore. This idea that the UK is inevitably doomed outside of the EU is such a canard - fact is, it cannot be known either way until it happens.
    - JAlexoid 8y ago
      Of course it's not doomed. But your position on "too much immigrants" is xenophobic, regardless of how you see it. You're literally ignoring the fact, that most congestion in London and S/E England is due to internal migration. You're blaming EU migrants for your discomfort, the ones that are most likely to work for a bit and go back to their countries.
      - growlist 8y ago
        EU immigration certainly doesn't help. Also please don't throw insults around without foundation, which I see that you've been able to do with impunity, which says something about this forum.

ticmasta 8y ago

> sovereign nation once again As a Canadian (and I imagine citizen of pretty much any non-european commonwealth country) I had to chuckle a bit. After being treated like a resource-extraction milking machine historically and then maintaining this pseudo-ceremonial allegiance to a royal head of state it seems funny for someone from the mothership to bemoan a loss of sovereignty and self-determination. No ill-will intended, just struck me as humorous in what is in all other regards a very humorless situation...

growlist 8y ago
I'm basically a small c conservative, and I think the country is a far less pleasant place to live than when I grew up. If we want mass immigration we also need a massive house building programme, which might involve concreting over the countryside, or perhaps a proper regional policy. I don't see how we can have one without the other. If we were as big as Canada it would be a different story! I went to the beach with the dog on New Year's day - there were thousands of other people, the roads were clogged, and it spoiled the experience. Buying in the countryside is often not an option depending on your career, because many jobs are only available in the South East, hence you are forced to live in a hyper-competitive area, fighting it out with millions of others for your tiny slice of England. I'm just trying to explain that my reasons for wanting lower immigration have nothing to do with xenophobia, and everything to do with the realities of life in the SE UK. Injecting millions more people is going to make it a massive miserable conurbation, in my view.
- throwaway-hn123 8y ago
  > I'm just trying to explain that my reasons for wanting lower immigration have nothing to do with xenophobia I'm afraid you've failed quite miserably.
- steve_gh 8y ago
  It's a little more nuanced than that ... the SE of England was generally the area most in favour of Remain. Pretty much all of rural England outside of the pull of London voted to Leave. I see Brexit as the losers in the globalization push taking their revenge on the winners.

PunchTornado 8y ago

is Canada not a sovereign nation because it is part of NAFTA?

jermaustin1 8y ago
Not to defend GP's post, but NAFTA and EU are vastly different. Without proper visas, I cannot settle in Canada, I cannot work in Canada, I cannot vacation for longer than 6 months in Canada. I don't see why I shouldn't be allowed to. I think it would be nice to move freely between the NAFTA nations.
- JAlexoid 8y ago
  Free Trade is a shitty thing, without labour migration. As in - if Carrier moved their A/C to Mexico, then some people could move with it... reducing the impact on the community.

yakshaving_jgt 8y ago

Regaining control of our borders? Have you ever been to a UK border? We’re not in Shengen. You can’t just stroll across. This trope about discarding democracy is tired too. A democracy isn’t “choose once and keep forever”. We are free to change our minds. Or are you surprised that we have general elections every so often?

growlist 8y ago
> This trope about discarding democracy is tired too Imagine the contempt with which calls for a second referendum would be treated if it were remain that had won. Not to mention, we were told that the vote would settle the issue for a generation. Oh whoops, apparently only if we voted remain!
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  But that was exactly Farage’s plan. How did you miss this?
  - growlist 8y ago
    Yes but I seriously doubt it would have gone anywhere.