22 ms·
Record Numbers of Americans Want to Leave the U.S
- conanbatt 8y agoThis implies that the people that advocate so strongly about Trump and see it as a true decay of american society is 5%. So actually a very small minority!
- nrb 8y agoOr the vast majority of that sub-group wishes to stay and change it...
- rootusrootus 8y agoWas going to say exactly this. Disapproving massively of the current political climate in the United States and worrying about what it says about our future is not going to make me want to run away. This is my home, I want to make it better. We just took a little misstep, that's all.
- akhilcacharya 8y agoDisapproving so strongly and seeing others disapprove so strongly has made me, personally, more patriotic and appreciative for the country than I used to be.
- rootusrootus 8y agoIt certainly gives me hope. Apathy is the worst, I really like to see people express an opinion, even when I may not entirely agree with it.
- conanbatt 8y agoMAybe, but the vast majority that wishes to stay would be higher on the previous cycles (bush/obama). This is all very naive speculation of course.
- lkrubner 8y agoMost people want to fix the country and make it better, and many people feel that getting rid of Trump is an important step towards fixing the problems in the country. Deciding to give up and leave the country is a very momentous decision that people have to feel very strongly about before they commit to it.
- eli_gottlieb 8y agoOh, they do? I've left before, and came back for my wife's sake. I'll be pretty glad to leave again. Sorry if that doesn't sound patriotic or something, but I've basically spent most of my life by now being told that because of where I was born (New York) means I'm not a "real American" and deserve to have my voice in national affairs actively repressed by various means -- while also being a smug elite somehow. So be it, then.
- davesque 8y agoI see it that way and I don't want to leave.
- wycy 8y agoThis does not imply that at all.
- bananatron 8y ago"I would rather be somewhere else" != "american society is in decay" There are a lot of variables that go into that kind of decision making. Regardless, in some of these segments, the values double from previous administrations, which is wild.
- walrus01 8y agohttps://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/immigrate-canada.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se...
- jedmeyers 8y agoWait. You don’t just walk across the border, you have to file an application and have it approved to live in Canada? Is this how a progressive nation should behave?
- rootusrootus 8y agoIIRC it's pretty common to walk across the border and then present yourself to immigration and ask for asylum. Assuming that is your only probable immigration method, since otherwise it's reputedly quite difficult to gain approval. Also, Canada handles the whole process a bit more humanely than the United States does.
- bruceb 8y agoare hundreds/thousands of people trying to cross in to Canada everyday? Easy when its only a few people, harder when its not.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agohttps://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/services/refugees/asylum-claims.html https://www.canada.ca/en/immigration-refugees-citizenship/se... https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/asylum-applications https://tradingeconomics.com/united-states/asylum-applicatio... It looks like it's actually pretty proportional. And based upon that data, thousands of people are NOT trying to cross into America via asylum seeking every day.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- cazum 8y ago
- marknutter 8y agoBye!
- SketchySeaBeast 8y ago1.5x the population of Canada wants to move to Canada.
- m0zg 8y agoThey better be able to prove their skills, since Canada only accepts skilled immigrants.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoOr people seeking asylum. But yes, the Venn diagram of people who answered "yes" in this poll and those who would qualify for asylum is probably small.
- m0zg 8y agoBah, asylym. I bet a significant fraction of those surveyed think they can just walk over the border and live there.
- SketchySeaBeast 8y agoI'm sorry, but what does that add, other than by going "bah, I'll make up things about people I don't care for"?
- m0zg 8y agoThat people nearly universally think that the grass is greener on the other side of the fence, whereas it's really not. And that most people in the US neither qualify for asylum nor would they pass the skilled immigrant criteria. Speaking from experience here: I almost moved there before I immigrated to the US. The US process was easier believe it or not, and I'm glad I decided to move here and not elsewhere.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- ausbah 8y ago% of people who will actually leave the US? I'd wager near 0.
- cowpig 8y ago[citation needed]
- malvosenior 8y agoFrom the article: > It's important to note that people's desire to migrate is typically much higher than their intention to do so -- as such, it is unlikely that Americans will be flocking to the Canadian border. In fact, since Trump's election, Canadian statistics show only a modest uptick in the number of Americans who have moved to Canada.
- josefresco 8y ago"modest uptick" != 0 Not negligible, not imperceptible ... modest.
- j4kp07 8y agoWagers don't require citations. Get off your high horse.
- m0zg 8y agoI'd wager it's negative, actually. :-)
- cazum 8y agoyes, but that's going to be more a result of financial restrictions, not lack of real desire.
- jknightco 8y agoWe left. Three years ago, for Spain. We're not planning on returning, barring some sort of international catastrophe.
- lkrubner 8y agoA truly incredible statistic: “40% of women younger than 30 would like to leave the U.S.” That says a lot about the extent to which Trump has alienated young women.
- azinman2 8y agoThat number seems extremely suspect. If that were really true, it would bubble about culturally in all kinds of ways.
- akhilcacharya 8y agoRecord turnout at the women’s marches and the midterms seem like a good indicator. Wouldn’t surprise me if the question response was just hyperbole from the answerer.
- rconti 8y agoWhat more proof are you waiting to see? Marches, record numbers of political candidates...
- village-idiot 8y ago.... Have you not been paying attention? A lot of women are pissed.
- azinman2 8y agoWhich is very different from nearly half the population wanting to permanently emigrate.
- toufiqbarhamov 8y agoMaybe they see the writing on the wall with the president, senate, and especially Supreme Court and don’t want to stick around to see when their human rights get rolled back?
- village-idiot 8y ago
- whatshisface 8y agoI see that people are assuming that the ones who want to leave do so because they feel the government is insufficiently liberal. The truth is, I have met some people who wish they could leave to go somewhere more conservative. I think that everyone would want to leave the US if somewhere out there was a utopia that exactly implemented their political and social views. The main thing that tamps down that desire is the fact that such places rarely exist.
- qbz 8y ago>The truth is, I have met some people who wish they could leave to go somewhere more conservative. That sounds weird. Where are they going to move to? There are only a few select places in the world with freedom of speech, which seems like a very necessary value to be a conservative in the current times.
- zumu 8y agoMy first thought was Asia.
- qbz 8y agoWhat country exactly? I heard Japan has free speech.
- hindsightbias 8y agoA new Confederacy located in the former US South.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- bborud 8y agoAnecdotal evidence isn't really all that interesting.
- abootstrapper 8y ago
- skh 8y agoUltimately this indicates that people aren’t satisfied with the returns on taxation. I’m all for supporting a government that supports the people. From my perspective we don’t have this and haven’t had it for some time. Other developed nations have better infrastructure, better social support system, near free higher education, free at point of contact healthcare systems. What we get in the U.S. is the most advanced warfare system ever. EDIT: I’m not complaining about the level of military spending or healthcare spending. I’m pointing out that from my perspective our return on taxation is a great military and a crappy healthcare system. Hence I’m not happy about the returns on taxation.
- jedmeyers 8y ago> What we get in the U.S. is the most advanced warfare system ever. You get this in Canada as well, they just don’t pay for it - US taxpayers do.
- blhack 8y agoMost of Europe, and most of Asia too.
- endorphone 8y agoIn WWII Canada had the world's fourth largest air force, fifth largest navy. Canada was involved in WWII more than two years before the United States joined. You keep the military for the times, or at least most countries outside of the United States and its absolutely outrageous military spend does. If you think the US went to Iraq or Afghanistan or Vietnam for Canada (or countless exercises throughout the rest of the world, usually to prop up whatever the favored dictator was, and to promote US interests), or that Canada owes US taxpayers for that, you're profoundly mistaken (though Canada went heavily into Afghanistan for the United States, the single time NATO was actually invoked for defense).
- alpinewinter 8y agoThe US exports variants of a lot of military hardware for sure, but it still keeps the cream of the crop tucked away, such as the F-22. Don't think for a second the US military hasn't planned for having to wage war against a country that it's outfitted with it's own technology. Many exported items have reduced capabilities, and lack the communications systems that allow information sharing between all military assets. Information at the front line is what wins battles.
- surfmike 8y agoThere is no way people answer truthfully on these surveys, since the numbers don't come anywhere close to actual emigration; it seems more of a vote of dissent against the government.
- CydeWeys 8y agoIt's a simple gap between wishes/hopes and actions. Way more people make new year's resolutions to lose weight than actually follow through on that, too, and eating less is easier than spending your whole life.
- tjr225 8y agoI like America. I find its people, at least offline, to be warm and generous. I love the outdoors and the massive breadth of natural beauty in this country. However, it is very painful to me that part of my income gets funneled into the pockets of mass murderers. If I were to choose to leave this country it would have to be to some place that at the very least, spends less of my income on endless war. It's a real shame there is basically no peace movement anymore.
- omegaworks 8y ago>It's a real shame there is basically no peace movement anymore. It exists, but the form it takes has been highly stigmatized to the point of presently being litigated out of existence by the current Senate[1]. Call them 202-224-3121 and express your displeasure at the outlawing of peaceful resistance to occupation. 1. https://theintercept.com/2019/01/05/u-s-senates-first-bill-in-midst-of-shutdown-is-a-bipartisan-defense-of-the-israeli-government-from-boycotts/ https://theintercept.com/2019/01/05/u-s-senates-first-bill-i...
- tjr225 8y agoYou are the second person to link me to an article about this bill today - absolute insanity.
- linsistine 8y agoUnrelated to the reason that was listed in the article, but I've spoken to numerous people over the last couple of years who've expressed they would like to leave due to the US's culture. Although this is a beautiful, diverse, and free country (compared to the rest of the world), everything in the US revolves around work and money.
- rabidonrails 8y agoThis seems like a sensational title. The basic gist of the article is that while the US in inline with the rest of the world, there is a significant uptick in younger women who say they would like to leave since Trump.
- rabidonrails 8y agodownvotes but no responses?
- wil421 8y ago>These results are based on telephone interviews with approximately 1,000 adults per year, aged 15 and older, conducted in the U.S. They only asked 1,000 adults via phone calls? Pretty small survey but I’m not a statistician. Edit: Downvoters. Please comment. Was the survey larger? Is 1,000 a large enough sample size to make conclusions about the whole US? This is HN please engage.
- IncRnd 8y agoThere also is low quality of respondents in addition to low quantity. I don't really think that 15 is adult...
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- tlb 8y ago1000 gets you down to 3% margin of sampling error. Asking the question in different ways can affect the results a lot more.
- wil421 8y agoNot very knowledgeable of margin of errors but does 1,000 people, not women, really give you enough data to represent 30+ million females between 15-30?
- tlb 8y agoOut of 1000 adults, you'd expect 125 to be women 15-30. That gives a margin of error for that subgroup of 9% (at 95% confidence level). They quoted 40%, so it's 95% likely to be between 31% and 49%. The size of the population doesn't affect the accuracy of a survey, only the size of the survey.
- wil421 8y agoYou answered my first question and now I have many many more. Thanks for responding.
- hombre_fatal 8y ago"I would love to travel" and "I would love to live somewhere else" are some of the most worthless declarations I've ever heard. You'll find that people don't even want to invoke the tiniest bit of effort to realize either of those ambitions. Instead people prefer the self-limiting beliefs of why they cannot, like it somehow being expensive or that everything will collapse in their absence as if their life is a house of cards. Anyone who has lived abroad in a cheap country and dealt with a barrage of "omg I wish I could do what you do" knows what I'm talking about. At first you think people mean it, but the instant you challenge them on it, you realize they prefer the Skinner box of desiring rather than having.
- AnimalMuppet 8y agoI don't want to leave the US. But I was in England on a business trip last fall, and I was talking to some people. They mentioned thinking about leave England (I think because of Brexit fallout). For the first time, I could not recommend that they come to the US.
- gammateam 8y agoA lot of people in developed nations dont find the US an attractive destination, based on things that wouldnt define their user experience at all (human rights, south side chicago violence) The most closest analogy would be how Americans dont find China to be an attractive destination, for reasons they would never experience (human rights, poverty) or would most likely benefit from (credit scores)
- andrewmcwatters 8y agoAge 15-29: 30% I don't really give a shit about 15 year olds and their perspective on the world considering they hardly live in it until about 10 years later. The biggest impacts on their lives are from their parents' circumstance or decision making.
- cazum 8y agoPeople don't suddenly become politically aware at 18. Paying taxes and graduating high school doesn't grant you deep political insight. >The biggest impacts on their lives are from their parents' circumstance or decision making. While yes, their parents generally have the greatest direct control over their material conditions, the assumption that they then can't have any insights into political conditions that surround their parents, and their own, lives is absurd. For example, the gun violence high school walkouts were conducted by plenty of fifteen year olds, whose lives are directly affected by political conditions.
- andrewmcwatters 8y agoI'd be willing to bet good money that the number of teenagers who actually read propositions dramatically increases at literally age 18, considering that's when you can vote. So no, people do actually become politically aware, usually around 18 years of age or older. Until then, sentiment dominates.
- tristor 8y agoI find it interesting how many comments here and on other sites that linked the same article talk about this being tied to concerns around how their tax dollars are spent. It seems many people are not aware that the US is one of only two countries which taxes it's citizens no matter where they reside. Leaving the US is not enough if you wish to avoid taxation, you must also acquire citizenship in another country, and then renounce your US citizenship. Both of those things are much more difficult than they appear at first glance, and renouncing US citizenship has extremely broad and far-reaching consequences. Someone who has renounced their US citizenship is forever barred from ever getting citizenship, and their children are typically also barred from getting citizenship. In addition, they will pretty much always be denied a visa for entry, and they are ineligible for visa at arrival, and may have difficulty to get even pre-applied visas for visiting such as B-1/B-2. If you decide to emigrate elsewhere and renounce your US citizenship to avoid paying taxes, you basically give up on ever coming back to the US ever, and you'll be watched like a hawk by every single US ally. Denouncing your citizenship is a pretty radical move and is something that hallmarks you as the type of person who might go join ISIS or something. This is one reason why it doesn't matter how many people say they want to leave the US, almost none of them actually do it permanently. No matter what, you'll be paying taxes to build bombers, so you might as well enjoy the much higher quality of life on offer in the US while doing so. As someone who has traveled around the world extensively, staying in each place for very extended (months/years) periods of time, I can honestly say that despite all of its flaws, the US is still probably the best place one could possibly live inclusive of all factors. There is a reason we're a net importer of people rather than a net exporter.
- PakG1 8y agoAmericans can't declare themselves as non-residents that don't need to pay tax? Canadians who work abroad can do that. And then if they ever move back home, they just have to declare residency again. It's a bit of a process to do both, of course, but it's definitely there. Without this, Canadians who work abroad also get taxed on their global income. Just if you're lucky to work in a country with which Canada has a tax treaty, you don't get double-taxed. You just pay for taxes for the difference on what you would need to have paid in Canada for the same income level if your current country has a lower tax rate.
- ransom1538 8y ago[deleted]
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- sadris 8y agoIt's very easy to get a visa in Europe. Only $300k for an investment visa in Hungary.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- umvi 8y agoHow are other countries able to criticize American immigration policy if they are not immigration-friendly themselves?
- raverbashing 8y agoYeah you are misinformed about this Most (not all) countries in Europe have a straightforward way of obtaining citizenship with time if you're lawfully there. Of course, overstaying won't make things easier, but nowhere that happens.
- rconti 8y agoArgentina, for one. (of course, I'm a US + Italian citizen, soo...)
- duxup 8y agoThe hassle of moving to another country is not small. I gotta think there is a desire for personal change / lifestyle / even just seeing what it is like elsewhere, as much as just recent political stuff. It's easy to tack on reasons that are convenient to say, you might even think that is the reason... but the trigger might be something else.
- ggregoire 8y agoProbably hard to find, but I’m curious to know what are the numbers about foreigners wanting to live in the US compared to the numbers from 10 or 20 years ago.
- muzz 8y agoWould be really hard to ascertain those numbers. There might be some data that might indicate some of that kind of intent. Like number of apprehensions of illegals at the border. That peaked in the 80s and 90s and has dropped since: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-mexico-wall/img/how-many-people-are-crossing-the-border.png https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2017-trump-mexico-wall/im...
- asdjasldkjkljd 8y agoI've honestly considered it simply because of the ongoing stress of dealing with our healthcare system. If I had an easy-in to another country (e.g. birthright) I'd have left a while ago.
- smoothyface 8y agoI have a genuine question for people who want to leave the US because of Trump: Is your life actually any different since he's been elected (minus constant media coverage)? I have to say, mine isn't at all. He's barely accomplished anything that's had an impact on our lives yet people are still so upset about him becoming president that they want to move to another country. Can anyone give concrete examples of his policy decisions that have had a negative enough impact on their life that they would relocate to another country?
- eli_gottlieb 8y agoI wanted to leave the US well before Trump. He's not the disease. He's just the most visible symptom.
- muzz 8y agoMy German wife's grandparents probably personally experienced no noticeable negative impact on their lives in the 1930s.
- smoothyface 8y agoGodwining this is super unhelpful. Maybe your wife's grandparents didn't experience anything negative but millions did.
- Bhilai 8y agoThis is not about the current leadership in U.S but if I had to boil it down to one thing for me that really bothers me is the healthcare situation in this country. I've never seen healthcare system that is so difficult to navigate and so ridiculously expensive.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rdtsc 8y ago> It's important to note that people's desire to migrate is typically much higher than their intention to do so -- as such, it is unlikely that Americans will be flocking to the Canadian border. In fact, since Trump's election, Canadian statistics show only a modest uptick in the number of Americans who have moved to Canada. Reading the article at first it seems they intended to move, as in they were researching their options but it is not quite that, it's more of general musing of "maybe would like some day to move...". And Canada says very few actually moved. This confirms to what I've seen in my circle of acquaintances of out maybe 4 people who claimed they would move to Asia, Canada or Europe, none actually took any steps to do so. I can't blame them, having moved between countries before, it is a huge hurdle. I had the initial thought of saying "You probably won't..." to some of them but figured it would just get them upset.
- tivert 8y ago> Regression analysis shows that regardless of differences by gender, age or income -- if Americans disapprove of the job Trump is doing as president, they are more likely to want to leave... > Before and after Trump's election, many Americans -- particularly Democrats -- threatened to move to Canada (as Republicans did after Obama was elected). So this is just the often-mocked empty-threat to move to an idealized Canada that's commonly made by politically dissatisfied (partisan) Americans?
- purplezooey 8y agoWell, we did it to ourselves. I hope I'm living elsewhere when the reckoning comes.
- em3rgent0rdr 8y agoPeople always say they want to leave, but I'm curious in the actual stats of what percentage actually leave.