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This is a bummer on many levels, but also personally, a bit of a relief. For a while I was considering going all-in to try to get a role at Mozilla. I really b

This is a bummer on many levels, but also personally, a bit of a relief. For a while I was considering going all-in to try to get a role at Mozilla. I really believe in their mission, and I drink the kool-aid when it comes to the browser market getting gobbled up. What held me back at the time were the company reviews. The culture sounds toxic, and the management sounds incompetent, and there's no force of change that has done anything to change that in the past ~5 years. So this is a relief, because random online statements are often a limited glimpse into a company, and I've been worried that I made a bad choice by not going for a role there, but seeing something like this come from steve is very damning for Mozilla. Best of luck Steve, I’m sure you’ll end up somewhere great.

thanatropism 8y ago
> culture sounds toxic Is this an indirect reference to Brendan Eich's sacking or is it even worse?
- codezero 8y ago
  Even worse. I think the Brendan Eich sacking falls more in line with the management being incompetent.
  - thanatropism 8y ago
    I thought Brendan Eich /was/ management at the time of his defenestration.
    - codezero 8y ago
      Yeah, what I mean by this is that after his exit, management hasn't done much to help Mozilla, not that the act of his exit was a result of incompetent management.
- nicoburns 8y ago
  Not the OP, but I don't have a problem with the Brendan Eich incident (if a CEO doesn't have the confidence of their employees, then they shouldn't be CEO), but I still have a bad impression of Mozilla culture. To me the clearest sign is their product decisions. They just haven't made a lot of sense recently.
  - codezero 8y ago
    I agree with you. I assume you are being downvoted because there is a lot of polarity around the Eich exit at Mozilla from ... both sides ... here on HN :) I find it quite disappointing that drive-by downvotes are what happen, rather than more discussion, but that's life I guess.
- jcranmer 8y ago
  Brendan Eich was never sacked by Mozilla (the company or the foundation). That said, it was the strong backlash from the community that impelled him to quit.
  - BrendanEich 8y ago
    Please do not speak for me.
Foxboron 8y ago
>The culture sounds toxic, and the management sounds incompetent, and there's no force of change that has done anything to change that in the past ~5 years. The case regarding Daniel Micay and the Mozilla/Rust community is also worth looking into. But not sure how much is easy to come by as things have been deleted.
callahad 8y ago
Mozilla isn't a monolith. Like most medium and large organizations, your experience can vary greatly between teams and management chains. If Mozilla's mission and manifesto resonate with you, give it a shot. With Microsoft throwing their weight behind Chromium, we're the last bastion standing against a WebKit-derived monoculture. It's an impossible challenge, but it matters, and we've beaten the odds before. Current openings are at https://careers.mozilla.org/listings/ https://careers.mozilla.org/listings/, and I'd encourage you to apply.
- codezero 8y ago
  That's the problem though. From the outside, there's no way to know if you're going to end up in the "good" part of the company or not. Sure, you can do your best to screen the company, but it's not too hard in the short interview process to mask a lot of the warts. You could say this is true at any company, but it feels like more of a problem when comparing a company with lots of really good reviews/testimonials to one with very few good ones. I think I'd have to have a close friend, or someone who I trust internally, to convince me of the quality of a particular team at this point, and I haven't got that. Also, I've moved off the career path, I think, that would be of value at Mozilla.
  - Bartweiss 8y ago
    > From the outside, there's no way to know if you're going to end up in the "good" part of the company or not. I think this is a serious problem in all sorts of fields, and I've never heard of a good answer. Sometimes Glassdoor is enough to get impressions like "healthy devops team, unhealthy frontend and sales teams", but with companies where the same job title appears on many teams it's even harder to sort out. I suspect you're right that it's a significant reason for word-of-mouth job searches; they're a candidate's best form of diligence. It definitely cuts both ways, too - no matter what the prevailing culture a large company is likely to have teams out of sync with it. Places like Uber and Riot Games that make the news for bad culture have teams who aren't exposed to that stuff, and on the other side we've all heard stories of localized tyranny and incompetence within otherwise-great companies.
kevintb 8y ago
I never knew Mozilla had a toxic culture. Could you expand on this (or any other former Mozilla employees attest to this)?
- codezero 8y ago
  I haven't worked there so I don't want to go into detail as it would all be hearsay. I based this on some research I had done before considering a role there. I mainly read online, posts by former employees, and glassdoor reviews.
- sstangl 8y ago
  I have worked on Mozilla's JS team since 2010. I think our team culture is acceptable. Glossing over details, Mozilla Corp seems to have two cultures: one for engineering and team management, and another for mid-to-upper-level management. When these two groups interact, it tends to produce unhappiness. Over the years, that has been the source of most griping I've heard from coworkers, particularly when they need upper management's approval. Different parts of the company are pretty isolated from each other, and there's no real standardization, so experiences across the company likely differ from mine. The personal experience would depend a lot on who your manager is and how strongly they're able to advocate on your behalf, particularly when it comes to things like expanding your role and getting paid for that.
  - jlebar 8y ago
    > Glossing over details, Mozilla Corp seems to have two cultures: one for engineering and team management, and another for mid-to-upper-level management. This is in line with what I've heard from my friends who stayed longer than I did. But from my perspective now, wow does this sound toxic. It's sad to see things be like this, I loved Mozilla for most of the time that I was there.
Yoric 8y ago
As a Mozilla employee, I find the culture pretty good. Certainly better than in any other place I've worked. I imagine that some other teams may have a different experience.
- fabrice_d 8y ago
  Good to know things are going fine for you now Yoric. I remember you were not he last one complaining a couple of years ago :)
  - Yoric 8y ago
    Hello, fabrice_d :) Oh, yes, I do remember of a branch that used to deserve complaints. As you know, that branch doesn't exist anymore :)

thanatropism 8y ago

> culture sounds toxic Is this an indirect reference to Brendan Eich's sacking or is it even worse?

codezero 8y ago
Even worse. I think the Brendan Eich sacking falls more in line with the management being incompetent.
- thanatropism 8y ago
  I thought Brendan Eich /was/ management at the time of his defenestration.
  - codezero 8y ago
    Yeah, what I mean by this is that after his exit, management hasn't done much to help Mozilla, not that the act of his exit was a result of incompetent management.
nicoburns 8y ago
Not the OP, but I don't have a problem with the Brendan Eich incident (if a CEO doesn't have the confidence of their employees, then they shouldn't be CEO), but I still have a bad impression of Mozilla culture. To me the clearest sign is their product decisions. They just haven't made a lot of sense recently.
- codezero 8y ago
  I agree with you. I assume you are being downvoted because there is a lot of polarity around the Eich exit at Mozilla from ... both sides ... here on HN :) I find it quite disappointing that drive-by downvotes are what happen, rather than more discussion, but that's life I guess.
jcranmer 8y ago
Brendan Eich was never sacked by Mozilla (the company or the foundation). That said, it was the strong backlash from the community that impelled him to quit.
- BrendanEich 8y ago
  Please do not speak for me.

Foxboron 8y ago

>The culture sounds toxic, and the management sounds incompetent, and there's no force of change that has done anything to change that in the past ~5 years. The case regarding Daniel Micay and the Mozilla/Rust community is also worth looking into. But not sure how much is easy to come by as things have been deleted.

callahad 8y ago

Mozilla isn't a monolith. Like most medium and large organizations, your experience can vary greatly between teams and management chains. If Mozilla's mission and manifesto resonate with you, give it a shot. With Microsoft throwing their weight behind Chromium, we're the last bastion standing against a WebKit-derived monoculture. It's an impossible challenge, but it matters, and we've beaten the odds before. Current openings are at https://careers.mozilla.org/listings/ https://careers.mozilla.org/listings/, and I'd encourage you to apply.

codezero 8y ago
That's the problem though. From the outside, there's no way to know if you're going to end up in the "good" part of the company or not. Sure, you can do your best to screen the company, but it's not too hard in the short interview process to mask a lot of the warts. You could say this is true at any company, but it feels like more of a problem when comparing a company with lots of really good reviews/testimonials to one with very few good ones. I think I'd have to have a close friend, or someone who I trust internally, to convince me of the quality of a particular team at this point, and I haven't got that. Also, I've moved off the career path, I think, that would be of value at Mozilla.
- Bartweiss 8y ago
  > From the outside, there's no way to know if you're going to end up in the "good" part of the company or not. I think this is a serious problem in all sorts of fields, and I've never heard of a good answer. Sometimes Glassdoor is enough to get impressions like "healthy devops team, unhealthy frontend and sales teams", but with companies where the same job title appears on many teams it's even harder to sort out. I suspect you're right that it's a significant reason for word-of-mouth job searches; they're a candidate's best form of diligence. It definitely cuts both ways, too - no matter what the prevailing culture a large company is likely to have teams out of sync with it. Places like Uber and Riot Games that make the news for bad culture have teams who aren't exposed to that stuff, and on the other side we've all heard stories of localized tyranny and incompetence within otherwise-great companies.

kevintb 8y ago

I never knew Mozilla had a toxic culture. Could you expand on this (or any other former Mozilla employees attest to this)?

codezero 8y ago
I haven't worked there so I don't want to go into detail as it would all be hearsay. I based this on some research I had done before considering a role there. I mainly read online, posts by former employees, and glassdoor reviews.
sstangl 8y ago
I have worked on Mozilla's JS team since 2010. I think our team culture is acceptable. Glossing over details, Mozilla Corp seems to have two cultures: one for engineering and team management, and another for mid-to-upper-level management. When these two groups interact, it tends to produce unhappiness. Over the years, that has been the source of most griping I've heard from coworkers, particularly when they need upper management's approval. Different parts of the company are pretty isolated from each other, and there's no real standardization, so experiences across the company likely differ from mine. The personal experience would depend a lot on who your manager is and how strongly they're able to advocate on your behalf, particularly when it comes to things like expanding your role and getting paid for that.
- jlebar 8y ago
  > Glossing over details, Mozilla Corp seems to have two cultures: one for engineering and team management, and another for mid-to-upper-level management. This is in line with what I've heard from my friends who stayed longer than I did. But from my perspective now, wow does this sound toxic. It's sad to see things be like this, I loved Mozilla for most of the time that I was there.

Yoric 8y ago

As a Mozilla employee, I find the culture pretty good. Certainly better than in any other place I've worked. I imagine that some other teams may have a different experience.

fabrice_d 8y ago
Good to know things are going fine for you now Yoric. I remember you were not he last one complaining a couple of years ago :)
- Yoric 8y ago
  Hello, fabrice_d :) Oh, yes, I do remember of a branch that used to deserve complaints. As you know, that branch doesn't exist anymore :)