4 ms·

300-400lbs is the weight of two passengers. If we were that worried about per-axle weight on the roads, we wouldn't try to encourage HOV lanes or carpooling, si

300-400lbs is the weight of two passengers. If we were that worried about per-axle weight on the roads, we wouldn't try to encourage HOV lanes or carpooling, since more people in one car increases per-axle weight.

leetcrew 8y ago
honestly not sure what point you are trying to make here. a model 3 with two passengers will still be 300-400lbs heavier than the cars I mentioned. yes, passengers also add a significant amount of weight to a car, but not enough to damage the road as much three separate midsize sedans.
- freehunter 8y ago
  My point is that 300-400lbs isn't significant in the grand scheme of things. There are plenty of things that add weight to cars that no one mentions. It's hard to then argue that electric cars are too heavy to be mass-market. No one is advocating for fewer passengers per car, even though each passenger adds weight. In fact, we prefer more passengers per car because (among other things) it is fewer engines pumping out pollutants. The same can be said about electric cars. Yet electric cars are getting complains about another 300-400 lbs, but gasoline-powered carpools are not. No one here has complained about the added weight of the unnecessary cargo most people carry. No one is mentioning the weight of a full tank of gasoline (an average full tank is ~100 lbs) and advocating for smaller tanks or to run with just enough fuel to get to your destination. Air bags and anti-lock brakes and automatic transmissions and air conditioning and stereo systems all add significant weight to the car. No one would advocate removing those things from cars. No one complains about the added weight of things designed to make cars more fuel efficient because we like the fuel efficiency. Yet batteries do just that, and here we are. My point is, arguing that electric cars have a problem because they're as heavy as a gasoline powered car (with no gasoline in it, since curb weight is empty) with two passengers is disingenuous at best and harmful at worst. It's a complete non-argument. Especially when passenger cars are some of the lightest vehicles on the road, by an impressively huge margin. An electric car may be 12% heavier than a gasoline car, but a semi truck is still 1600% heavier than that.
  - leetcrew 8y ago
    we are in complete agreement that the road damage caused by sedans is negligible. I said in my very first post: "any sedan is going to do negligible damage compared to a large truck." I am only trying to clarify a couple specific points. the first is that EVs really do weigh a good bit more than comparable ICE vehicles. how much of a problem this is depends on the conversation you are having. and since you mentioned it, I also would like to point out that, as defined by the EPA in the US, curb weight does include a tank of gas filled to the advertised capacity. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight
    - freehunter 8y ago
      Thanks for the correction. And I'm not arguing against you, I'm just trying to contribute to the thread that village-idiot started when they said "My big fear is weight."
  - village-idiot 8y ago
    I'm not sure why you're upgrading my concerns about weight into "too heavy to be mass-market", I never said that. Conversations will typically be much more polite if you engage directly with what is said, rather than what was not said. What I am saying is that the weight is a factor, especially since I am particularly concerned with the (in my opinion) unbearable cost of America's road network. You might disagree with with how much of an effect an EV will have, but ignoring tradeoffs and (unfairly) characterizing my concerns as "disingenuous or harmful" is neither helpful nor polite. > An electric car may be 12% heavier than a gasoline car, but a semi truck is still 1600% heavier than that. It's rather uncharitable of you to not apply my concerns to the EV conversion of semitrucks, since it's a direct and obvious parallel. While Tesla's semitruck is expected to come in at the total weight as a Diesel truck including cargo, they are quite mum about how much the whole the truck itself weighs. This is important because a heavier truck means more trucks to compensate for reduced truck capacity. Walmart doesn't want less stuff shipped just because the truck carries less stuff, after all. My concerns are even worse with semitrucks, because semitrucks do a lot of damage and pay very little for it in the terms of gas and usage taxes. An EV semitruck will be a complete free-rider when it comes to gas tax (they'll still pay for usage tax), representing an even larger transfer of wealth from the state to trucking companies than what already exists.
dragonwriter 8y ago
Increasing occupancy reduces total road wear (the 300-400 pounds you cite is around 10% increase in weight, adding that much in passenger weight adds under 50% to road wear under the usual per-vehicle-wear is proportional to fourth power of weight rule of thumb; whereas adding two equivalent vehicles to the road adds 200% to road wear), except when it is increasing capacity rather than reducing wear.

leetcrew 8y ago

honestly not sure what point you are trying to make here. a model 3 with two passengers will still be 300-400lbs heavier than the cars I mentioned. yes, passengers also add a significant amount of weight to a car, but not enough to damage the road as much three separate midsize sedans.

freehunter 8y ago
My point is that 300-400lbs isn't significant in the grand scheme of things. There are plenty of things that add weight to cars that no one mentions. It's hard to then argue that electric cars are too heavy to be mass-market. No one is advocating for fewer passengers per car, even though each passenger adds weight. In fact, we prefer more passengers per car because (among other things) it is fewer engines pumping out pollutants. The same can be said about electric cars. Yet electric cars are getting complains about another 300-400 lbs, but gasoline-powered carpools are not. No one here has complained about the added weight of the unnecessary cargo most people carry. No one is mentioning the weight of a full tank of gasoline (an average full tank is ~100 lbs) and advocating for smaller tanks or to run with just enough fuel to get to your destination. Air bags and anti-lock brakes and automatic transmissions and air conditioning and stereo systems all add significant weight to the car. No one would advocate removing those things from cars. No one complains about the added weight of things designed to make cars more fuel efficient because we like the fuel efficiency. Yet batteries do just that, and here we are. My point is, arguing that electric cars have a problem because they're as heavy as a gasoline powered car (with no gasoline in it, since curb weight is empty) with two passengers is disingenuous at best and harmful at worst. It's a complete non-argument. Especially when passenger cars are some of the lightest vehicles on the road, by an impressively huge margin. An electric car may be 12% heavier than a gasoline car, but a semi truck is still 1600% heavier than that.
- leetcrew 8y ago
  we are in complete agreement that the road damage caused by sedans is negligible. I said in my very first post: "any sedan is going to do negligible damage compared to a large truck." I am only trying to clarify a couple specific points. the first is that EVs really do weigh a good bit more than comparable ICE vehicles. how much of a problem this is depends on the conversation you are having. and since you mentioned it, I also would like to point out that, as defined by the EPA in the US, curb weight does include a tank of gas filled to the advertised capacity. [0] [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curb_weight
  - freehunter 8y ago
    Thanks for the correction. And I'm not arguing against you, I'm just trying to contribute to the thread that village-idiot started when they said "My big fear is weight."
- village-idiot 8y ago
  I'm not sure why you're upgrading my concerns about weight into "too heavy to be mass-market", I never said that. Conversations will typically be much more polite if you engage directly with what is said, rather than what was not said. What I am saying is that the weight is a factor, especially since I am particularly concerned with the (in my opinion) unbearable cost of America's road network. You might disagree with with how much of an effect an EV will have, but ignoring tradeoffs and (unfairly) characterizing my concerns as "disingenuous or harmful" is neither helpful nor polite. > An electric car may be 12% heavier than a gasoline car, but a semi truck is still 1600% heavier than that. It's rather uncharitable of you to not apply my concerns to the EV conversion of semitrucks, since it's a direct and obvious parallel. While Tesla's semitruck is expected to come in at the total weight as a Diesel truck including cargo, they are quite mum about how much the whole the truck itself weighs. This is important because a heavier truck means more trucks to compensate for reduced truck capacity. Walmart doesn't want less stuff shipped just because the truck carries less stuff, after all. My concerns are even worse with semitrucks, because semitrucks do a lot of damage and pay very little for it in the terms of gas and usage taxes. An EV semitruck will be a complete free-rider when it comes to gas tax (they'll still pay for usage tax), representing an even larger transfer of wealth from the state to trucking companies than what already exists.

dragonwriter 8y ago

Increasing occupancy reduces total road wear (the 300-400 pounds you cite is around 10% increase in weight, adding that much in passenger weight adds under 50% to road wear under the usual per-vehicle-wear is proportional to fourth power of weight rule of thumb; whereas adding two equivalent vehicles to the road adds 200% to road wear), except when it is increasing capacity rather than reducing wear.