10 ms·

I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. Regardless of gender and nationality of commu

by 9214 8y ago

I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. Regardless of gender and nationality of community members, and despite the fact that Red is an alpha software, the following projects were created, which may qualify as highly visible: * neural networks [1] * computer vision framework [2] * dataflow engine [3] * ports of (cross-platform) GUI widgets [4] * projectional editor [5] * drawing apps [6] * operating systems (an in-house project as of now, so no link) If you don't know what to make out of Red, I'd suggest to grab the latest build [7] with a list of learning resources [8] and do a bit of research. Official About page [9] also gives a good list of main features. Big libraries indeed aren't necessary, because most of batteries are included in a 1MB executable, and common needs are covered by core library. Full-fledged module system is missing, but is planned for 0.8.0 release. We also have a large Rebol ecosystem, from which various scripts and applications may be ported, if necessary. [1]: http://redlcv.blogspot.com/2018/11/neural-network-with-red-language.html http://redlcv.blogspot.com/2018/11/neural-network-with-red-l... [2]: https://github.com/ldci/redCV https://github.com/ldci/redCV [3]: https://gitter.im/red/red/gui-branch?at=5c018edb8fa4333e391b867a https://gitter.im/red/red/gui-branch?at=5c018edb8fa4333e391b... [4]: https://gitter.im/red/red/gui-branch?at=5c03fdbabe66d825266600ac https://gitter.im/red/red/gui-branch?at=5c03fdbabe66d8252666... [5]: https://gitlab.com/rebolek/values https://gitlab.com/rebolek/values [6]: https://github.com/toomasv/drawing https://github.com/toomasv/drawing, https://github.com/honix/Redraw https://github.com/honix/Redraw [7]: https://www.red-lang.org/p/download.html https://www.red-lang.org/p/download.html [8]: https://github.com/red/red/wiki/[LINKS]-Learning-resources https://github.com/red/red/wiki/[LINKS]-Learning-resources [9]: https://www.red-lang.org/p/about.html https://www.red-lang.org/p/about.html

devwastaken 8y ago
>I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. There was no offense being given. In my experience there isn't sympathy for crying wolf here, and doing so only serves to harm whatever else you have to say.
- 9214 8y ago
  OP can always correct me if I'm wrong in my defensiveness.
  - wiremine 8y ago
    I'm not the OP (and not associated with red an anyway, other than being a fan of REBOL), and I agree the wording deserved to be called out. "cult" and "Czech wizardry" aren't exactly positive framing words. Hopefully this doesn't spiral into a discussion about PC comments, because red looks to be cool and deserves a good technical discussion; but I don't think 9214 was off base calling out the comment.
    - vanderZwan 8y ago
      > "Czech wizardry" It could be a compliment of course, like "wow, this stuff is amazing tech wizardry that should be much more appreciated, and probably would be if not for the language barrier!" Let's just agree that natural languages are too fuzzy and ambiguous and assume good faith.
      - 9214 8y ago
        Frankly, I don't get what Czech has to do with it and why it was mentioned. Major part of old-timers (from Rebol era) in our community are indeed Czech people, but Red development was initiated in France, moved to China, and now bridges people across the whole Europe. Putting such emphasis on nationality without any clear reason IMO looks strange and raises my eyebrow, to say the least.
      - MikeLui 8y ago
        I'm reminded of this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/opinion/reclaiming-jew.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/opinion/reclaiming-jew.ht... > To be “a real Christian” is a compliment, but to be “a real Jew” is considered an insult.
    - 9214 8y ago
      I admit that I can get off the base when it comes to critique from outsiders uninvolved in the project, and appreciate cross-checks from others. Besides, a warning shot won't hurt anyone.
hjek 8y ago
> > If anything, it sounds too easy, making me think "what's the catch? > This is rude and uncalled for. I think she/he raise a fair point about how the Red language is advertised, and it's actually a rather friendly to assume that it's due to language barrier. Many posts about Red/Rebol are unequivocal praise with very few details or any acknowledgements of short-comings or limitations of the languages. Just to dig up some random ones: Here's a speed comparison between Rebol and Python[0]: Rebol is faster (surprise!), but the post doesn't contain or link to any of the code used for the comparison Here's some grand self-praise from the Why Rebol/Red[1] on why it's just better than all other languages: > You may be familiar with Clojure, Python, Ruby, Lua, frameworks like Ruby on Rails, or any of the multitude of Javascript frameworks which are purpose-built to "ease" particular types of development work. Such languages/tools/environments are certainly productive compared to traditional tools like plain old C++, Java, etc., but they are absolute behemoths when compared to Rebol. Virtually every other well known development tool in popular use is built upon bloated layers of existing technology, and encumbered by mainstream language syntax and development procedures which introduce an extraordinary volume of unnecessary complexity at many levels. Most developers have just never experienced the sort of self dependent architecture, lightweight tooling, bare language and data structure syntax, composability, and reduced code volume, which Rebol prioritizes as its most important purposes. (Are Red/Rebol creators seriously claiming that Clojure's syntax is complex?) Of course there are sometimes programs about which you could make grand claims, like when SQLite claims to be "35% Faster Than The Filesystem"[2], yet they also clearly describe its limitations[3]. Edit: Even in this thread we get this kind of praise: > Isn't Red a great language to teach children? I just tried Red and it's amazingly simple to get started.[4] About a year ago I did try out Red and Rebol, and I couldn't get any of the examples to work, or figure out what the syntax meant, because there's just so many cool examples of how few lines it takes to do X but very little explanation. It made me feel a bit inadequate, because if this language is soooo easy to use, and yet I somehow fail to grok it, then I'm just not smart enough, right? Here's one of the examples linked to in Why Rebol and Red, with hardcoded IP, no comments and all: REBOL [title: "Live Camera Video Stream"] for i 2 27 1 [append b:[] rejoin [http://207.251.86.238/cctv i ".jpg"]] view w: layout [ i: image 320x240 text-list 320x200 data b [forever [ set-face i load value wait 1 if not viewed? w [unview break] ]] ] It's great that someone found that so easy to write, but it looks like one-off write-only shell script, and is certainly not useful for "teaching children". I know it might seem a bit harsh that I'm suggesting that Rebol/Red is being promoted in a somewhat dishonest way, but I'm mentioning this so that you could hopefully improve, not to make you upset. Edit: More over-the-top praise.[5][6][7][8] [0]: http://blog.hostilefork.com/rebol-vs-python-performance/ http://blog.hostilefork.com/rebol-vs-python-performance/ [1]: http://redprogramming.com/Why%20Rebol%20and%20Red.html http://redprogramming.com/Why%20Rebol%20and%20Red.html [2]: https://www.sqlite.org/fasterthanfs.html https://www.sqlite.org/fasterthanfs.html [3]: https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html (See the section Situations Where A Client/Server RDBMS May Work Better) [4]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844770 [5]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844002 [6]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844185 [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844746 [8]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845102
_pmf_ 8y ago
I honestly think the comment was not intended to be rude.
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
b_tterc_p 8y ago
It’s not the end of the world if there are no highly visible projects. You’ve listed 6 things, but at a glance I don’t think any of them are highly visible. Unless... there was a language barrier which obscured the meaning of “highly visible” which would be pretty funny in an ironic way.
sevensor 8y ago
> I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. No offense was meant -- wizardry is no bad thing in my estimation, and the Red community seems like it may have a lot of Czech wizards in it. The juxtaposition with cult is meant to convey my confusion; I can't tell a cult from a cabal of wizards. Nor do I mean to imply that a language barrier is anybody's fault. A language barrier is a natural feature of the internet, like a river separating monolingual anglophones like me from Czech speakers. The point of my comment is that reading about Red always leaves me puzzled. I'm afraid your links, which I've followed to a depth of 1, have failed to dispel my confusion.
- 9214 8y ago
  My apologies then, better to be safe than sorry. Like I said, the best way to dispel the confusion is to play with Red by yourself and ask question in community chat. It is puzzling at first, but clicks over time.

by 9214 8y ago

devwastaken 8y ago

>I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. There was no offense being given. In my experience there isn't sympathy for crying wolf here, and doing so only serves to harm whatever else you have to say.

9214 8y ago
OP can always correct me if I'm wrong in my defensiveness.
- wiremine 8y ago
  I'm not the OP (and not associated with red an anyway, other than being a fan of REBOL), and I agree the wording deserved to be called out. "cult" and "Czech wizardry" aren't exactly positive framing words. Hopefully this doesn't spiral into a discussion about PC comments, because red looks to be cool and deserves a good technical discussion; but I don't think 9214 was off base calling out the comment.
  - vanderZwan 8y ago
    > "Czech wizardry" It could be a compliment of course, like "wow, this stuff is amazing tech wizardry that should be much more appreciated, and probably would be if not for the language barrier!" Let's just agree that natural languages are too fuzzy and ambiguous and assume good faith.
    - 9214 8y ago
      Frankly, I don't get what Czech has to do with it and why it was mentioned. Major part of old-timers (from Rebol era) in our community are indeed Czech people, but Red development was initiated in France, moved to China, and now bridges people across the whole Europe. Putting such emphasis on nationality without any clear reason IMO looks strange and raises my eyebrow, to say the least.
    - MikeLui 8y ago
      I'm reminded of this article: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/opinion/reclaiming-jew.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/22/opinion/reclaiming-jew.ht... > To be “a real Christian” is a compliment, but to be “a real Jew” is considered an insult.
  - 9214 8y ago
    I admit that I can get off the base when it comes to critique from outsiders uninvolved in the project, and appreciate cross-checks from others. Besides, a warning shot won't hurt anyone.

hjek 8y ago

> > If anything, it sounds too easy, making me think "what's the catch? > This is rude and uncalled for. I think she/he raise a fair point about how the Red language is advertised, and it's actually a rather friendly to assume that it's due to language barrier. Many posts about Red/Rebol are unequivocal praise with very few details or any acknowledgements of short-comings or limitations of the languages. Just to dig up some random ones: Here's a speed comparison between Rebol and Python[0]: Rebol is faster (surprise!), but the post doesn't contain or link to any of the code used for the comparison Here's some grand self-praise from the Why Rebol/Red[1] on why it's just better than all other languages: > You may be familiar with Clojure, Python, Ruby, Lua, frameworks like Ruby on Rails, or any of the multitude of Javascript frameworks which are purpose-built to "ease" particular types of development work. Such languages/tools/environments are certainly productive compared to traditional tools like plain old C++, Java, etc., but they are absolute behemoths when compared to Rebol. Virtually every other well known development tool in popular use is built upon bloated layers of existing technology, and encumbered by mainstream language syntax and development procedures which introduce an extraordinary volume of unnecessary complexity at many levels. Most developers have just never experienced the sort of self dependent architecture, lightweight tooling, bare language and data structure syntax, composability, and reduced code volume, which Rebol prioritizes as its most important purposes. (Are Red/Rebol creators seriously claiming that Clojure's syntax is complex?) Of course there are sometimes programs about which you could make grand claims, like when SQLite claims to be "35% Faster Than The Filesystem"[2], yet they also clearly describe its limitations[3]. Edit: Even in this thread we get this kind of praise: > Isn't Red a great language to teach children? I just tried Red and it's amazingly simple to get started.[4] About a year ago I did try out Red and Rebol, and I couldn't get any of the examples to work, or figure out what the syntax meant, because there's just so many cool examples of how few lines it takes to do X but very little explanation. It made me feel a bit inadequate, because if this language is soooo easy to use, and yet I somehow fail to grok it, then I'm just not smart enough, right? Here's one of the examples linked to in Why Rebol and Red, with hardcoded IP, no comments and all: REBOL [title: "Live Camera Video Stream"] for i 2 27 1 [append b:[] rejoin [http://207.251.86.238/cctv i ".jpg"]] view w: layout [ i: image 320x240 text-list 320x200 data b [forever [ set-face i load value wait 1 if not viewed? w [unview break] ]] ] It's great that someone found that so easy to write, but it looks like one-off write-only shell script, and is certainly not useful for "teaching children". I know it might seem a bit harsh that I'm suggesting that Rebol/Red is being promoted in a somewhat dishonest way, but I'm mentioning this so that you could hopefully improve, not to make you upset. Edit: More over-the-top praise.[5][6][7][8] [0]: http://blog.hostilefork.com/rebol-vs-python-performance/ http://blog.hostilefork.com/rebol-vs-python-performance/ [1]: http://redprogramming.com/Why%20Rebol%20and%20Red.html http://redprogramming.com/Why%20Rebol%20and%20Red.html [2]: https://www.sqlite.org/fasterthanfs.html https://www.sqlite.org/fasterthanfs.html [3]: https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html https://www.sqlite.org/whentouse.html (See the section Situations Where A Client/Server RDBMS May Work Better) [4]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844770 [5]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844002 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844002 [6]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844185 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844185 [7]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844746 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18844746 [8]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845102 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18845102

_pmf_ 8y ago

I honestly think the comment was not intended to be rude.

deleted 8y ago

[deleted]

b_tterc_p 8y ago

It’s not the end of the world if there are no highly visible projects. You’ve listed 6 things, but at a glance I don’t think any of them are highly visible. Unless... there was a language barrier which obscured the meaning of “highly visible” which would be pretty funny in an ironic way.

sevensor 8y ago

> I do not appreciate your remark about our community and Czech-speaking part of it. This is rude and uncalled for. No offense was meant -- wizardry is no bad thing in my estimation, and the Red community seems like it may have a lot of Czech wizards in it. The juxtaposition with cult is meant to convey my confusion; I can't tell a cult from a cabal of wizards. Nor do I mean to imply that a language barrier is anybody's fault. A language barrier is a natural feature of the internet, like a river separating monolingual anglophones like me from Czech speakers. The point of my comment is that reading about Red always leaves me puzzled. I'm afraid your links, which I've followed to a depth of 1, have failed to dispel my confusion.

9214 8y ago
My apologies then, better to be safe than sorry. Like I said, the best way to dispel the confusion is to play with Red by yourself and ask question in community chat. It is puzzling at first, but clicks over time.