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This is a great anecdote to describe a formal approach which is called positive discipline. We assume as adults that children who do things that are not what w

by zaroth 8y ago

This is a great anecdote to describe a formal approach which is called positive discipline. We assume as adults that children who do things that are not what we want or against our instructions need “discipline” in order to learn they should have made a better choice. This fails on the most basic point. Young children are, in most cases, not making a conscious choice at all in these cases. They are not thinking in their brains, the same way we adults imagine a conscious decision making process occurs, weighing the concequences and choosing a certain path. They are not deciding to be bad because it is easier/more fun/worth it at that age. Positive discipline is not actually discipline at all. It is fundamentally a realization that children make “mistakes” because they weren’t actually capable of doing what was asked of them. The essence of positive discipline is the search for the underlying reason a child is not capable of following your direction at that point in time / for the task at hand. Barring an exceptional case, (younger in particular) children are straight up desperate for attention and affection of their parents. Sometimes this is the hardest thing in the world, as a fully functioning adult, when your child is doing something [annoying/destructive/insulting/dangerous/disgusting] after the n-th time you’ve told them not to. Adults respond to punishment / negative reinforcement very differently than [young] children. In particular keep in mind this is primarily a learning experience for a child to develop coping skills and the ability to regulate their emotions. The skills don’t develop very well from a basis of fear of reprisal in my opinion. I’m not always able to practice positive discipline with my kids, but I can’t count the number of occasions where I’ve pulled out that tool in response to some stressful situation and watched the sheer relief/release on my kid’s face when they manage to actually communicate outloud to someone that will listen that thing that had them so upset or feeling sad/mad/lousy.

dominotw 8y ago
> Young children are, in most cases, not making a conscious choice at all in these cases > children are straight up desperate for attention and affection of their parents Does it mean that children have a motive but don't have the logical aptitude to get to the goal ?
gowld 8y ago
You're right that you can punish a child (or an adult) into understanding something they can't yet understand, but you can punish a child (or an adult) into refraining from a behavior, unless the person is incapable of understanding cause and effect. Billions of people (and animals) have learned to restrain their impulses out of fear of punishment. It's fundamental to how mammal brains work.
- jschwartzi 8y ago
  The problem is that teaching people to restrain their impulses using a fear of punishment is totally different from getting them to change their behavior because they understand why the behavior is bad. When you simply punish someone without teaching them to understand you create a system of unwritten rules where the person is unsure whether any particular action will result in a punishment or not. But if you can create an understanding of why the action was bad then you can give the person a toolset to understand whether their future actions will be bad. And hopefully you can create a society of people whose behavior is determined by their understanding of right and wrong and not by whether or not they think they will be punished for something. I think you're grossly oversimplifying the way people work if you don't see the difference here.
  - ksdale 8y ago
    This. If parents expect their kids to obey for fear of punishment, they’re teaching the lesson that you obey people who are stronger than you. Out in the real world, when someone tells you to obey because they are stronger, you tell them to stuff it. It is widely agreed that in society, people need better reasons to be obeyed than that (even if the strong do tend to get their way more often...). I think what you said about understanding future actions and disconnecting them from punishment is spot on.
  - AvocadoPanic 8y ago
    Often punishment is the result of violating a written or established rule.
- zaroth 8y ago
jrauser 8y ago
I'm reminded of a time when my sister in law was upset with her daughter. The girl was supposed to have cleaned her bathroom but hadn't swept the floor. To make peace, I offered to help her finish the task. What I learned is that she actually didn't know how to sweep a floor (she was maybe 5 or 6 years old). I helped her and both of us felt like we'd learned something. She learned to sweep a floor, and I learned that often, when kids aren't meeting your expectations it because they honestly don't understand how to do it. I didn't have a child for a long time after this, but I think of this vignette often. Even at work with junior colleagues, often they have no earthly idea what the expectations are or how to fulfill them. They need to be taught and just expressing your disapproval isn't going to help.
abalone 8y ago
I just want to note that if this was in fact a case of a transient tic then "positive discipline" could be counterproductive. Obsessive finger/hand licking is a known example of transient tic disorder. If we define positive discipline as addressing the behavior and trying to compliment them stopping it, or "encouragingly" and "nicely" enforcing some kind of positive or negative punishment, then it's just kind of making the child more self-conscious and stressing them out for something they can't control. This prolongs the tic. It's really what it sounds like to me here. It's quite common and nothing to worry about, at least for the first few months. Although in some cases it can lead to more serious long term issues and require intervention, in most cases it's temporary and goes away all on its own. The best thing in most cases is to ignore it. Calling attention to it just stresses out the child and makes it worse.[1] [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/transient-tic-disorder https://www.healthline.com/health/transient-tic-disorder

by zaroth 8y ago

dominotw 8y ago

> Young children are, in most cases, not making a conscious choice at all in these cases > children are straight up desperate for attention and affection of their parents Does it mean that children have a motive but don't have the logical aptitude to get to the goal ?

gowld 8y ago

You're right that you can punish a child (or an adult) into understanding something they can't yet understand, but you can punish a child (or an adult) into refraining from a behavior, unless the person is incapable of understanding cause and effect. Billions of people (and animals) have learned to restrain their impulses out of fear of punishment. It's fundamental to how mammal brains work.

jschwartzi 8y ago
The problem is that teaching people to restrain their impulses using a fear of punishment is totally different from getting them to change their behavior because they understand why the behavior is bad. When you simply punish someone without teaching them to understand you create a system of unwritten rules where the person is unsure whether any particular action will result in a punishment or not. But if you can create an understanding of why the action was bad then you can give the person a toolset to understand whether their future actions will be bad. And hopefully you can create a society of people whose behavior is determined by their understanding of right and wrong and not by whether or not they think they will be punished for something. I think you're grossly oversimplifying the way people work if you don't see the difference here.
- ksdale 8y ago
  This. If parents expect their kids to obey for fear of punishment, they’re teaching the lesson that you obey people who are stronger than you. Out in the real world, when someone tells you to obey because they are stronger, you tell them to stuff it. It is widely agreed that in society, people need better reasons to be obeyed than that (even if the strong do tend to get their way more often...). I think what you said about understanding future actions and disconnecting them from punishment is spot on.
- AvocadoPanic 8y ago
  Often punishment is the result of violating a written or established rule.
zaroth 8y ago

jrauser 8y ago

I'm reminded of a time when my sister in law was upset with her daughter. The girl was supposed to have cleaned her bathroom but hadn't swept the floor. To make peace, I offered to help her finish the task. What I learned is that she actually didn't know how to sweep a floor (she was maybe 5 or 6 years old). I helped her and both of us felt like we'd learned something. She learned to sweep a floor, and I learned that often, when kids aren't meeting your expectations it because they honestly don't understand how to do it. I didn't have a child for a long time after this, but I think of this vignette often. Even at work with junior colleagues, often they have no earthly idea what the expectations are or how to fulfill them. They need to be taught and just expressing your disapproval isn't going to help.

abalone 8y ago

I just want to note that if this was in fact a case of a transient tic then "positive discipline" could be counterproductive. Obsessive finger/hand licking is a known example of transient tic disorder. If we define positive discipline as addressing the behavior and trying to compliment them stopping it, or "encouragingly" and "nicely" enforcing some kind of positive or negative punishment, then it's just kind of making the child more self-conscious and stressing them out for something they can't control. This prolongs the tic. It's really what it sounds like to me here. It's quite common and nothing to worry about, at least for the first few months. Although in some cases it can lead to more serious long term issues and require intervention, in most cases it's temporary and goes away all on its own. The best thing in most cases is to ignore it. Calling attention to it just stresses out the child and makes it worse.[1] [1] https://www.healthline.com/health/transient-tic-disorder https://www.healthline.com/health/transient-tic-disorder