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Eh... I can count on a shop teacher's hand the number of times I was actually spanked or swatted when I was a kid, but after talking to my Mom about it, I thin

Eh... I can count on a shop teacher's hand the number of times I was actually spanked or swatted when I was a kid, but after talking to my Mom about it, I think she made the right choice the times she did. To give a specific example, once was when I was about five, I had just learned about electromagnets, and was actively trying to shove bare wire into an outlet. Yes, the spanking did make me a little afraid of poking around outlets again. No, it did not make me resentful, and more dedicated to wirepokery than before; my parents were consistently trustworthy, so I took their fear reaction as something I should genuinely respect. And that very small amount of added fear in my life quite possibly saved it. If I got spanked for every little thing, I could easily see that shifting to resentment. But appropriately, rarely applied, I can say with certainty it worked for me.

georgebarnett 8y ago
If violence worked, the drug war would be over because people would not take drugs. .. and there would be no crime and police would have only one encounter with each person. Clearly this isn’t true, so it suggests there was an alternative to violence that could have been applied in your youth.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  Drugs are much more expensive and more difficult to procure than they would be if they were legal, so reducing consumption. On that basis the drug war clearly works. If violence is unnecessary and there’s always an alternative why are all states fundamentally enforced and maintained by violence?
- random314 8y ago
  You receive the special hacker news award for shittiest extrapolation - 2019.
  - georgebarnett 8y ago
    If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. Instead, what we see is that the more violence applied, the worse the outcome in the long run. This indicates it’s not a solution.
    - random314 8y ago
      Clearly, you are no mathematician.
    - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
      > If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. I am generally opposed to violence, but...that really doesn't make sense. It's not generally true that, if <foo> fixes something, 10*<foo> fixes it 10 times better.
    - scarejunba 8y ago
      This is astonishingly illogical. > If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. This does not follow at all. This whole argument is total bullshit. It may end up being the right answer for parenting (don't use violence against your kids) but the reasoning is astonishing. Every single one of the statements is false and only the conclusion is true. What a masterpiece!
      - georgebarnett 8y ago
        Ok, you’re right. (I’m reminded how difficult it is to make full arguments over text. Rather than flog a dead horse, I’ll just accept that I’m not able to make my point clearly enough.)
    - geomark 8y ago
      Just yesterday I was reading a list of logical fallacies, and between this comment and your previous one I think you've hit at least 3 or 4 of them.
      - 8y ago
  - dri_ft 8y ago
    And it's only January!
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- tigershark 8y ago
  So do you think that if from today all the crimes were depenalised there would be no whatsoever increase in thefts, assaults, murders and all the other crimes? I think that instead we would see a massive increase.
  - jstanley 8y ago
    I don't think there would be a very big increase. Most people just don't want to steal, assault, murder, etc. because of their own morality, not because of the law.
    - lazyasciiart 8y ago
      That only means there wouldn't be a massive increase in the number of perpetrators. I expect that the set of people who aren't morally against it would be willing to do it more often if the risks went down.
      - jstanley 8y ago
        > > > I think that instead we would see a massive increase. > > I don't think there would be a very big increase. > That only means there wouldn't be a massive increase [...] Agreed.
    - adwn 8y ago
      > Most people just don't want to steal, assault, murder, etc. because of their own morality, not because of the law. I strongly disagree. Many (but not all!) people would be more likely to steal – given an opportunity – if they were absolutely sure they wouldn't face any negative consequences. Similarly, a lot more people would punch someone in the face if they insulted them or cut in line, when they would be absolutely sure that the other person wouldn't punch back. That doesn't mean that most people are inherently evil, just that they're non-perfect, flawed human beings. Social pressure and the justice system keeps them in line, not their morality.
- Retra 8y ago
  Just because something causes pain does not mean it is violent. Violence requires significantly elevated risk of injury or damage.
vidarh 8y ago
> But appropriately, rarely applied, I can say with certainty it worked for me. No, you can't. Maybe it did, but you don't know how you'd acted if they'd just talked to you instead. It's easy to think we can untangle how a given event shaped us, but we really are horribly bad at it. It ignores that people who never were spanked regularly can tell similar stories about just having been talked to (that's how I learned not to stuff wires in outlets). You can't tell if they are right about how it affected their behaviour either. In either situation we're guessing based on how it made us feel. I don't think the very occasional spank is likely to be massively damaging, but I also don't think its necessary - I grew up around the time it was outlawed in Norway in the 80's. It was publicised enough that the one time my mother slapped me when I was a child, I threatened to call the police because I'd heard about it on the radio. People insisted the change in the law would be a disaster and that children needed to be spanked, and it'd be all doom and gloom. It was largely a non-event, apart from some pastor that made a big point of protesting and telling everyone how he still spanked his children. Children still learn not to put wires in electrical outlets whether their parents spank them or not (as I'm writing this, I've had flashes of recollection of scary scenarios that feel like they may have been things I was told about as a child, but I really has no way of knowing if that's a real memory or "fabricated"). There was no massive rise in badly behaved children, or sudden surge of people electrocuting themselves. Of course, nor did it make us all magically better adjusted.
- benj111 8y ago
  My 2 year old announces that the oven is hot, then goes up to touch it to confirm, regardless of me explaining it to him. I've never spanked him, I wouldn't be confident of him understanding a danger I had explained to him though.
  - bpizzi 8y ago
    At 2 years old there's only one thing a parent can do to avoid a child touching a hot oven: make it physically impossible for the child to access a hot oven.
    - 8y ago
icantdrive55 8y ago
I used to put pennies in the fuse box as a kid. My mom didn't spank me on that one, but the anger she displayed stopped my childish behavior. By the way, I think we have gone overboard on electrical codes, but not having the fuse box in the bedroom closet is a good one. (Speaking of negative reinforcement, I belive I'm Shadowbanned. I don't care enough to check it out in incognito mode, so down-vote/upvote me please. Why did I get banned? I guess the moderator didn't like me? He did me a favor kind of, but I think shadowbanning is very petty. So petty, I'd be shocked if Dang was an American. And no--if you're going to fire someone, you just ban them. Tell them like an ethical person would do? O.k.--I guess it's obvious negative reinforcement doesn't work on the internet, at least with me?)
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
nostrademons 8y ago
There are plug covers you can buy for < $0.10 each that solve that problem. Hell, my parents also told me when I was ~4 not to stick anything in the electrical outlets. No spankings were involved. I listened because why wouldn't I? (Well, at least until senior year in college, when I was like "What happens if I strip an Ethernet cord and stick it in an electrical outlet?" I'd missed the exploding-wires demonstration in my physics course, y'see. Did not get electrocuted, though I did get a spectacular pyrotechnics show.)
- Robin_Message 8y ago
  These are not recommended in the UK; UK sockets have internal safety features which plastic plug covers are actually more likely to compromise (by a child e.g. inserting one upside down. The plug cover will usually be thing enough to bend and make this possible, and then the shutter will be up and the contacts exposed.)
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  Plug covers are easily and rapidly removed by curious children, and are potentially a choking hazard. Tamper-resistant receptacles, however, do seem to provide a real increase in safety. FWIW. https://www.esfi.org/resource/how-protected-are-children-from-electric-shock-554 https://www.esfi.org/resource/how-protected-are-children-fro... (These did not exist when I was a child, but had they been available, I'm sure my parents would have used them.) >I listened because why wouldn't I? So did I, about a vast majority of things, until I didn't, because I thought electromagnets were cooler than verbal warnings were deterring. I think you will be hard-pressed to find a child anywhere in the world that doesn't push boundaries.
  - manmal 8y ago
    You are arguing that the spanking AFTER you tampered with a wire saved you. First, you could have died before the spanking. Punishment after the fact never rights a done wrong. Second, at the age of 4, if your parents had just sat down with you and told you that you can die from electric shock, don't you think that would have made a lasting impression either?
lmm 8y ago
> But appropriately, rarely applied, I can say with certainty it worked for me. For me it was "appropriately, rarely applied", and it was still awful and the negative consequences are still with me. Yes, it's harmless in some cases; so is falling out of an aeroplane.
dragonwriter 8y ago
> Yes, the spanking did make me a little afraid of poking around outlets again. No, it did not make me resentful, and more dedicated to wirepokery than before; my parents were consistently trustworthy, so I took their fear reaction as something I should genuinely respect. Wait, so was the thing that underlined the message the physical punishment or your parent’s fear reaction? You seem to be equating them, but it's quite common for parents to demonstrate fear without physical punishment, and to administer physical punishment without showing fear. They are essentially orthogonal concerns.
- Baeocystin 8y ago
  I should clarify. I did not know my mother (the one who caught me performing my well-designed science experiment with the wall outlet) was scared at the time; I only learned that when we spoke about the experience when I was older.
crimsonalucard 8y ago
Chinese kids are beaten all the time if they get a A- instead of an A+ on their report card. Maybe that's why the Chinese economy is on track to overtake the United States.

georgebarnett 8y ago

If violence worked, the drug war would be over because people would not take drugs. .. and there would be no crime and police would have only one encounter with each person. Clearly this isn’t true, so it suggests there was an alternative to violence that could have been applied in your youth.

barry-cotter 8y ago
Drugs are much more expensive and more difficult to procure than they would be if they were legal, so reducing consumption. On that basis the drug war clearly works. If violence is unnecessary and there’s always an alternative why are all states fundamentally enforced and maintained by violence?
random314 8y ago
You receive the special hacker news award for shittiest extrapolation - 2019.
- georgebarnett 8y ago
  If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. Instead, what we see is that the more violence applied, the worse the outcome in the long run. This indicates it’s not a solution.
  - random314 8y ago
    Clearly, you are no mathematician.
  - PhasmaFelis 8y ago
    > If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. I am generally opposed to violence, but...that really doesn't make sense. It's not generally true that, if <foo> fixes something, 10*<foo> fixes it 10 times better.
  - scarejunba 8y ago
    This is astonishingly illogical. > If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. This does not follow at all. This whole argument is total bullshit. It may end up being the right answer for parenting (don't use violence against your kids) but the reasoning is astonishing. Every single one of the statements is false and only the conclusion is true. What a masterpiece!
    - georgebarnett 8y ago
      Ok, you’re right. (I’m reminded how difficult it is to make full arguments over text. Rather than flog a dead horse, I’ll just accept that I’m not able to make my point clearly enough.)
  - geomark 8y ago
    Just yesterday I was reading a list of logical fallacies, and between this comment and your previous one I think you've hit at least 3 or 4 of them.
    - 8y ago
- dri_ft 8y ago
  And it's only January!
deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
tigershark 8y ago
So do you think that if from today all the crimes were depenalised there would be no whatsoever increase in thefts, assaults, murders and all the other crimes? I think that instead we would see a massive increase.
- jstanley 8y ago
  I don't think there would be a very big increase. Most people just don't want to steal, assault, murder, etc. because of their own morality, not because of the law.
  - lazyasciiart 8y ago
    That only means there wouldn't be a massive increase in the number of perpetrators. I expect that the set of people who aren't morally against it would be willing to do it more often if the risks went down.
    - jstanley 8y ago
      > > > I think that instead we would see a massive increase. > > I don't think there would be a very big increase. > That only means there wouldn't be a massive increase [...] Agreed.
  - adwn 8y ago
    > Most people just don't want to steal, assault, murder, etc. because of their own morality, not because of the law. I strongly disagree. Many (but not all!) people would be more likely to steal – given an opportunity – if they were absolutely sure they wouldn't face any negative consequences. Similarly, a lot more people would punch someone in the face if they insulted them or cut in line, when they would be absolutely sure that the other person wouldn't punch back. That doesn't mean that most people are inherently evil, just that they're non-perfect, flawed human beings. Social pressure and the justice system keeps them in line, not their morality.
Retra 8y ago
Just because something causes pain does not mean it is violent. Violence requires significantly elevated risk of injury or damage.

vidarh 8y ago

> But appropriately, rarely applied, I can say with certainty it worked for me. No, you can't. Maybe it did, but you don't know how you'd acted if they'd just talked to you instead. It's easy to think we can untangle how a given event shaped us, but we really are horribly bad at it. It ignores that people who never were spanked regularly can tell similar stories about just having been talked to (that's how I learned not to stuff wires in outlets). You can't tell if they are right about how it affected their behaviour either. In either situation we're guessing based on how it made us feel. I don't think the very occasional spank is likely to be massively damaging, but I also don't think its necessary - I grew up around the time it was outlawed in Norway in the 80's. It was publicised enough that the one time my mother slapped me when I was a child, I threatened to call the police because I'd heard about it on the radio. People insisted the change in the law would be a disaster and that children needed to be spanked, and it'd be all doom and gloom. It was largely a non-event, apart from some pastor that made a big point of protesting and telling everyone how he still spanked his children. Children still learn not to put wires in electrical outlets whether their parents spank them or not (as I'm writing this, I've had flashes of recollection of scary scenarios that feel like they may have been things I was told about as a child, but I really has no way of knowing if that's a real memory or "fabricated"). There was no massive rise in badly behaved children, or sudden surge of people electrocuting themselves. Of course, nor did it make us all magically better adjusted.

benj111 8y ago
My 2 year old announces that the oven is hot, then goes up to touch it to confirm, regardless of me explaining it to him. I've never spanked him, I wouldn't be confident of him understanding a danger I had explained to him though.
- bpizzi 8y ago
  At 2 years old there's only one thing a parent can do to avoid a child touching a hot oven: make it physically impossible for the child to access a hot oven.
  - 8y ago

icantdrive55 8y ago

I used to put pennies in the fuse box as a kid. My mom didn't spank me on that one, but the anger she displayed stopped my childish behavior. By the way, I think we have gone overboard on electrical codes, but not having the fuse box in the bedroom closet is a good one. (Speaking of negative reinforcement, I belive I'm Shadowbanned. I don't care enough to check it out in incognito mode, so down-vote/upvote me please. Why did I get banned? I guess the moderator didn't like me? He did me a favor kind of, but I think shadowbanning is very petty. So petty, I'd be shocked if Dang was an American. And no--if you're going to fire someone, you just ban them. Tell them like an ethical person would do? O.k.--I guess it's obvious negative reinforcement doesn't work on the internet, at least with me?)

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]

nostrademons 8y ago

There are plug covers you can buy for < $0.10 each that solve that problem. Hell, my parents also told me when I was ~4 not to stick anything in the electrical outlets. No spankings were involved. I listened because why wouldn't I? (Well, at least until senior year in college, when I was like "What happens if I strip an Ethernet cord and stick it in an electrical outlet?" I'd missed the exploding-wires demonstration in my physics course, y'see. Did not get electrocuted, though I did get a spectacular pyrotechnics show.)

Robin_Message 8y ago
These are not recommended in the UK; UK sockets have internal safety features which plastic plug covers are actually more likely to compromise (by a child e.g. inserting one upside down. The plug cover will usually be thing enough to bend and make this possible, and then the shutter will be up and the contacts exposed.)
Baeocystin 8y ago
Plug covers are easily and rapidly removed by curious children, and are potentially a choking hazard. Tamper-resistant receptacles, however, do seem to provide a real increase in safety. FWIW. https://www.esfi.org/resource/how-protected-are-children-from-electric-shock-554 https://www.esfi.org/resource/how-protected-are-children-fro... (These did not exist when I was a child, but had they been available, I'm sure my parents would have used them.) >I listened because why wouldn't I? So did I, about a vast majority of things, until I didn't, because I thought electromagnets were cooler than verbal warnings were deterring. I think you will be hard-pressed to find a child anywhere in the world that doesn't push boundaries.
- manmal 8y ago
  You are arguing that the spanking AFTER you tampered with a wire saved you. First, you could have died before the spanking. Punishment after the fact never rights a done wrong. Second, at the age of 4, if your parents had just sat down with you and told you that you can die from electric shock, don't you think that would have made a lasting impression either?

lmm 8y ago

> But appropriately, rarely applied, I can say with certainty it worked for me. For me it was "appropriately, rarely applied", and it was still awful and the negative consequences are still with me. Yes, it's harmless in some cases; so is falling out of an aeroplane.

dragonwriter 8y ago

> Yes, the spanking did make me a little afraid of poking around outlets again. No, it did not make me resentful, and more dedicated to wirepokery than before; my parents were consistently trustworthy, so I took their fear reaction as something I should genuinely respect. Wait, so was the thing that underlined the message the physical punishment or your parent’s fear reaction? You seem to be equating them, but it's quite common for parents to demonstrate fear without physical punishment, and to administer physical punishment without showing fear. They are essentially orthogonal concerns.

Baeocystin 8y ago
I should clarify. I did not know my mother (the one who caught me performing my well-designed science experiment with the wall outlet) was scared at the time; I only learned that when we spoke about the experience when I was older.

crimsonalucard 8y ago

Chinese kids are beaten all the time if they get a A- instead of an A+ on their report card. Maybe that's why the Chinese economy is on track to overtake the United States.