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> It never ceases to amaze me how many authority figures think violence “fixes” a behaviour I think it's safe to assume that most humans currently alive were s

> It never ceases to amaze me how many authority figures think violence “fixes” a behaviour I think it's safe to assume that most humans currently alive were spanked as children and most parents alive today spank their children. If that assumption is true, than it's not amazing... it's just the norm.

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
Arguing from tradition on a tech forum? I’m not sure I see the logic here, unless you’re the type who thinks that we made a mistake trading flint for bronze. Extremes aside, your argument could be applied equally well to bleeding people for “medicine” without changing more than the word “spanked” to “bled”. That should probably give you pause.
- khazhou 8y ago
  Your critique isn't much better, my friend. You are exaggerating his argument terribly ("bleeding people" like old times?) rather than looking at his actual point. He is saying that spanking was, and he claims is, still common. I don't personally have data, but I was certainly spanked, and I never thought it unusual. I hated it and vowed not to spank my own, which I never have. But I have no data on the rest of the world... and don't much feel like researching it anyway.
  - toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
    I’m saying that “it’s normal” in the satatistical sense isn’t even an argument, it’s just an observation devoid of insight or a position. It also misses the entire point of the article, best summed up as: The hand licking incident brought it home to me in a big way that, yea, verily, it's better to stand there dumbly and just watch it burn while trying to think of something better to do, even though that is extraordinarily stressful and can feel like the worst possible solution. When there is a crisis, it often feels like you should do Something! Anything! Maybe. But sometimes you should do Anything -- except that. Anything but that. So it reinforced my resolve to stand my ground when adults around me were haranguing me to do things I knew would not work and would, in fact, be counterproductive. The response that lots of people don’t see a problem with it is hard to interpret charitably in that context.
  - braft 8y ago
    Right. markdown was obviously not saying "children ought to be spanked because it's traditional and currently common," but rather, "you should not be 'amazed' that people feel that way because it is common."
- GavinMcG 8y ago
  I think you understood the comment to be endorsing spanking, where I read it as just an explanation of why people might assume violence is the answer.
- markdown 8y ago
  > Arguing from tradition on a tech forum? I've not yet argued a position here; only pointed out that spanking is the norm on planet earth. For what it's worth, I was spanked (IMO responsibly, not abusively) as a child but I do not spank my own child. Parenting is hard. People try their best. I'm grateful to my parents for raising me the best way they knew how.
icu 8y ago
In the UK it is actually illegal to smack your kid... so it's not like corporal punishment is still the norm now. There is also a large portion of parents who have rejected corporal punishment and opted for 'peaceful parenting' techniques from a moralistic perspective based on the non-aggression principle. Even if you don't agree on moral grounds there have been loads of research papers written on this topic. The papers I have read have helped me make my mind up as I was once in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" camp. For example, spanking by parents can significantly damage a child’s mental abilities and results in a lower IQ later in life (study by researchers at the University of New Hampshire). Additionally researchers have found that harsh physical punishment was associated with increased odds of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug abuse/dependence, and several personality disorders after adjusting for sociodemographic variables and family dysfunction, and that if harsh physical punishment did not occur, the prevalence of certain mental disorders might have been reduced by ~2% to 7%. There are tons more studies on this. So, if you consider your role as a parent to include giving your child the best chance at life you need to seriously evaluate the body of evidence against using corporal punishment.
- benj111 8y ago
  Smacking (not hitting) is legal in England but not Wales or Scotland. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/smacking-children-uk-law-change-ban-is-it-illegal-what-are-rules-parents-punishment-a8069436.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
- hogger 8y ago
  Hitting children is also illegal in New Zealand. Something to consider - is hitting the child caring for them or venting frustration?
  - winchling 8y ago
    >Something to consider - is hitting the child caring for them or venting frustration? A very important consideration. A parent who smacks out of frustration or malice will do harm. Yet a neglectful parent who never smacks a child will do more harm than an engaged parent who does.
projectileboy 8y ago
For what it's worth, I think that assumption very well might not be true. But I also suspect it would be very hard to find out real numbers for that.
- markdown 8y ago
  Spanking is culturally accepted in most of the developing world. Statistically speaking, the western nations where spanking has gone out of fashion don't add up to much.
  - Jolter 8y ago
    I doubt you have data to back that claim up. We should not be too quick to assume things about "the developing world" (whatever we think that means, and I'm sure we won't even agree on that) unless we have solid real information.
scarejunba 8y ago
Modern usage of "never ceases to amaze" permits reference to things that are common. For instance, one could say "it never ceases to amaze me that people believe in God". A few billion people believe in God, so one could say it's not particularly amazing but that's not the point. The point is that, in the opinion of the speaker, it is so outlandish as to be unbelievable that anyone could feel that way. It's a rhetorical exaggeration.
- markdown 8y ago
  Fair enough.

toufiqbarhamov 8y ago

Arguing from tradition on a tech forum? I’m not sure I see the logic here, unless you’re the type who thinks that we made a mistake trading flint for bronze. Extremes aside, your argument could be applied equally well to bleeding people for “medicine” without changing more than the word “spanked” to “bled”. That should probably give you pause.

khazhou 8y ago
Your critique isn't much better, my friend. You are exaggerating his argument terribly ("bleeding people" like old times?) rather than looking at his actual point. He is saying that spanking was, and he claims is, still common. I don't personally have data, but I was certainly spanked, and I never thought it unusual. I hated it and vowed not to spank my own, which I never have. But I have no data on the rest of the world... and don't much feel like researching it anyway.
- toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
  I’m saying that “it’s normal” in the satatistical sense isn’t even an argument, it’s just an observation devoid of insight or a position. It also misses the entire point of the article, best summed up as: The hand licking incident brought it home to me in a big way that, yea, verily, it's better to stand there dumbly and just watch it burn while trying to think of something better to do, even though that is extraordinarily stressful and can feel like the worst possible solution. When there is a crisis, it often feels like you should do Something! Anything! Maybe. But sometimes you should do Anything -- except that. Anything but that. So it reinforced my resolve to stand my ground when adults around me were haranguing me to do things I knew would not work and would, in fact, be counterproductive. The response that lots of people don’t see a problem with it is hard to interpret charitably in that context.
- braft 8y ago
  Right. markdown was obviously not saying "children ought to be spanked because it's traditional and currently common," but rather, "you should not be 'amazed' that people feel that way because it is common."
GavinMcG 8y ago
I think you understood the comment to be endorsing spanking, where I read it as just an explanation of why people might assume violence is the answer.
markdown 8y ago
> Arguing from tradition on a tech forum? I've not yet argued a position here; only pointed out that spanking is the norm on planet earth. For what it's worth, I was spanked (IMO responsibly, not abusively) as a child but I do not spank my own child. Parenting is hard. People try their best. I'm grateful to my parents for raising me the best way they knew how.

icu 8y ago

In the UK it is actually illegal to smack your kid... so it's not like corporal punishment is still the norm now. There is also a large portion of parents who have rejected corporal punishment and opted for 'peaceful parenting' techniques from a moralistic perspective based on the non-aggression principle. Even if you don't agree on moral grounds there have been loads of research papers written on this topic. The papers I have read have helped me make my mind up as I was once in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" camp. For example, spanking by parents can significantly damage a child’s mental abilities and results in a lower IQ later in life (study by researchers at the University of New Hampshire). Additionally researchers have found that harsh physical punishment was associated with increased odds of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug abuse/dependence, and several personality disorders after adjusting for sociodemographic variables and family dysfunction, and that if harsh physical punishment did not occur, the prevalence of certain mental disorders might have been reduced by ~2% to 7%. There are tons more studies on this. So, if you consider your role as a parent to include giving your child the best chance at life you need to seriously evaluate the body of evidence against using corporal punishment.

benj111 8y ago
Smacking (not hitting) is legal in England but not Wales or Scotland. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/smacking-children-uk-law-change-ban-is-it-illegal-what-are-rules-parents-punishment-a8069436.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
hogger 8y ago
Hitting children is also illegal in New Zealand. Something to consider - is hitting the child caring for them or venting frustration?
- winchling 8y ago
  >Something to consider - is hitting the child caring for them or venting frustration? A very important consideration. A parent who smacks out of frustration or malice will do harm. Yet a neglectful parent who never smacks a child will do more harm than an engaged parent who does.

projectileboy 8y ago

For what it's worth, I think that assumption very well might not be true. But I also suspect it would be very hard to find out real numbers for that.

markdown 8y ago
Spanking is culturally accepted in most of the developing world. Statistically speaking, the western nations where spanking has gone out of fashion don't add up to much.
- Jolter 8y ago
  I doubt you have data to back that claim up. We should not be too quick to assume things about "the developing world" (whatever we think that means, and I'm sure we won't even agree on that) unless we have solid real information.

scarejunba 8y ago

Modern usage of "never ceases to amaze" permits reference to things that are common. For instance, one could say "it never ceases to amaze me that people believe in God". A few billion people believe in God, so one could say it's not particularly amazing but that's not the point. The point is that, in the opinion of the speaker, it is so outlandish as to be unbelievable that anyone could feel that way. It's a rhetorical exaggeration.

markdown 8y ago
Fair enough.