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It never ceases to amaze me how many authority figures think violence “fixes” a behaviour, rather than simply causing the issue to be hidden and breaking down t

• markdown 8y ago
  > It never ceases to amaze me how many authority figures think violence “fixes” a behaviour I think it's safe to assume that most humans currently alive were spanked as children and most parents alive today spank their children. If that assumption is true, than it's not amazing... it's just the norm.
  • toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
    Arguing from tradition on a tech forum? I’m not sure I see the logic here, unless you’re the type who thinks that we made a mistake trading flint for bronze. Extremes aside, your argument could be applied equally well to bleeding people for “medicine” without changing more than the word “spanked” to “bled”. That should probably give you pause.
    • khazhou 8y ago
      Your critique isn't much better, my friend. You are exaggerating his argument terribly ("bleeding people" like old times?) rather than looking at his actual point. He is saying that spanking was, and he claims is, still common. I don't personally have data, but I was certainly spanked, and I never thought it unusual. I hated it and vowed not to spank my own, which I never have. But I have no data on the rest of the world... and don't much feel like researching it anyway.
      • toufiqbarhamov 8y ago
        I’m saying that “it’s normal” in the satatistical sense isn’t even an argument, it’s just an observation devoid of insight or a position. It also misses the entire point of the article, best summed up as: The hand licking incident brought it home to me in a big way that, yea, verily, it's better to stand there dumbly and just watch it burn while trying to think of something better to do, even though that is extraordinarily stressful and can feel like the worst possible solution. When there is a crisis, it often feels like you should do Something! Anything! Maybe. But sometimes you should do Anything -- except that. Anything but that. So it reinforced my resolve to stand my ground when adults around me were haranguing me to do things I knew would not work and would, in fact, be counterproductive. The response that lots of people don’t see a problem with it is hard to interpret charitably in that context.
      • braft 8y ago
        Right. markdown was obviously not saying "children ought to be spanked because it's traditional and currently common," but rather, "you should not be 'amazed' that people feel that way because it is common."
    • GavinMcG 8y ago
      I think you understood the comment to be endorsing spanking, where I read it as just an explanation of why people might assume violence is the answer.
    • markdown 8y ago
      > Arguing from tradition on a tech forum? I've not yet argued a position here; only pointed out that spanking is the norm on planet earth. For what it's worth, I was spanked (IMO responsibly, not abusively) as a child but I do not spank my own child. Parenting is hard. People try their best. I'm grateful to my parents for raising me the best way they knew how.
  • icu 8y ago
    In the UK it is actually illegal to smack your kid... so it's not like corporal punishment is still the norm now. There is also a large portion of parents who have rejected corporal punishment and opted for 'peaceful parenting' techniques from a moralistic perspective based on the non-aggression principle. Even if you don't agree on moral grounds there have been loads of research papers written on this topic. The papers I have read have helped me make my mind up as I was once in the "spare the rod, spoil the child" camp. For example, spanking by parents can significantly damage a child’s mental abilities and results in a lower IQ later in life (study by researchers at the University of New Hampshire). Additionally researchers have found that harsh physical punishment was associated with increased odds of mood disorders, anxiety disorders, alcohol and drug abuse/dependence, and several personality disorders after adjusting for sociodemographic variables and family dysfunction, and that if harsh physical punishment did not occur, the prevalence of certain mental disorders might have been reduced by ~2% to 7%. There are tons more studies on this. So, if you consider your role as a parent to include giving your child the best chance at life you need to seriously evaluate the body of evidence against using corporal punishment.
    • benj111 8y ago
      Smacking (not hitting) is legal in England but not Wales or Scotland. https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/smacking-children-uk-law-change-ban-is-it-illegal-what-are-rules-parents-punishment-a8069436.html https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families...
    • hogger 8y ago
      Hitting children is also illegal in New Zealand. Something to consider - is hitting the child caring for them or venting frustration?
      • winchling 8y ago
        >Something to consider - is hitting the child caring for them or venting frustration? A very important consideration. A parent who smacks out of frustration or malice will do harm. Yet a neglectful parent who never smacks a child will do more harm than an engaged parent who does.
  • projectileboy 8y ago
    For what it's worth, I think that assumption very well might not be true. But I also suspect it would be very hard to find out real numbers for that.
    • markdown 8y ago
      Spanking is culturally accepted in most of the developing world. Statistically speaking, the western nations where spanking has gone out of fashion don't add up to much.
      • Jolter 8y ago
        I doubt you have data to back that claim up. We should not be too quick to assume things about "the developing world" (whatever we think that means, and I'm sure we won't even agree on that) unless we have solid real information.
  • scarejunba 8y ago
    Modern usage of "never ceases to amaze" permits reference to things that are common. For instance, one could say "it never ceases to amaze me that people believe in God". A few billion people believe in God, so one could say it's not particularly amazing but that's not the point. The point is that, in the opinion of the speaker, it is so outlandish as to be unbelievable that anyone could feel that way. It's a rhetorical exaggeration.
    • markdown 8y ago
      Fair enough.
• Baeocystin 8y ago
  Eh... I can count on a shop teacher's hand the number of times I was actually spanked or swatted when I was a kid, but after talking to my Mom about it, I think she made the right choice the times she did. To give a specific example, once was when I was about five, I had just learned about electromagnets, and was actively trying to shove bare wire into an outlet. Yes, the spanking did make me a little afraid of poking around outlets again. No, it did not make me resentful, and more dedicated to wirepokery than before; my parents were consistently trustworthy, so I took their fear reaction as something I should genuinely respect. And that very small amount of added fear in my life quite possibly saved it. If I got spanked for every little thing, I could easily see that shifting to resentment. But appropriately, rarely applied, I can say with certainty it worked for me.
  • georgebarnett 8y ago
    If violence worked, the drug war would be over because people would not take drugs. .. and there would be no crime and police would have only one encounter with each person. Clearly this isn’t true, so it suggests there was an alternative to violence that could have been applied in your youth.
    • barry-cotter 8y ago
      Drugs are much more expensive and more difficult to procure than they would be if they were legal, so reducing consumption. On that basis the drug war clearly works. If violence is unnecessary and there’s always an alternative why are all states fundamentally enforced and maintained by violence?
    • random314 8y ago
      You receive the special hacker news award for shittiest extrapolation - 2019.
      • georgebarnett 8y ago
        If violence worked as a strategy, then it would work better the more of it was applied. Instead, what we see is that the more violence applied, the worse the outcome in the long run. This indicates it’s not a solution.
• monochromatic 8y ago
  Violence?
• sneak 8y ago
  “Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” —Asimov
  • ddalex 8y ago
    Words to live, and die, by.
  • crimsonalucard 8y ago
    The united states was built on violence. Violence is a valid option to get things done. Yes, it's socially frowned upon. However if you look at history, entire empires are built off of violence. If you can get what you want via violence instead of diplomacy logically you've succeeded in getting what you want. Violence along with diplomacy is a logical means to an end
    • sneak 8y ago
      Did violence invent the Apollo guidance computer or the Saturn V? Did violence build the SR-71? Did violence design Teller’s hydrogen bomb? Did violence build Apple or Google or Facebook or Amazon? I think if that is the answer you want, you will be able to find enough examples (slavery, et c) to support that conclusion. But many countries had slavery; only a few could build planes to outrun SAMs, land on the moon, index the entire internet, or create the modern smartphone/tablet. Creativity is much more important than violence. Violence can only be used to perpetuate the status quo; you cannot beat someone into invention or value creation
      • crimsonalucard 8y ago
        No but if I have a strong desire to kill an enemy I could invent something to make me better at killing. All modern military technology and the technology that spawned from it such as the Saturn V or the hydrogen bomb were invented because of the desire to inflict violence on an enemy. Creativity is a tool; violence, hatred and competition is a driving force. That is not to discount empathy and altruism as driving forces but to ignore hatred and violence as things that have human shaped progress (and improved society technologically) is to ignore reality.
• legohead 8y ago
  Were you given any courses on parenting in school?
  • ddalex 8y ago
    Our modern increased individualism and focus on mono-nuclear families should require that. In tribal societies everybody knows how to do that since they have been doing it since they were old enough to care for their younger siblings or generally the younger kids of the village.
    • rubidium 8y ago
      Families form tribes Tribes form society Society forms the state State destroys the tribes State destroys the families State controls all.