8 ms·
Tox – An encrypted P2P chat protocol that does not rely on central servers
- woodruffw 8y agoI'll be the downer here and point out that Tox (both the specification and the c-toxcore implementation) have never undergone a security evaluation, and there are well-understood weaknesses in its security model right now[1]. If you feel inclined to use Tox at all, you should do so as a curiosity only. [1]: https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426 https://github.com/TokTok/c-toxcore/issues/426
- math_and_stuff 8y agoWhat do you recommend instead?
- woodruffw 8y agoI don't know if I have any strong recommendations. In terms of what I use: Keybase and iMessage, depending on who I'm talking to.
- unicornporn 8y agoMatrix/Riot.im is federated and has E2EE. It also has brigdes for IRC, Telegram etc. Here's a native client for macOS: https://neilalexander.eu/seaglass https://neilalexander.eu/seaglass Web client: https://riot.im/experimental/ https://riot.im/experimental/
- im3w1l 8y agoMatrix is also experimental. About a year ago it kept losing my key meaning I couldn't decrypt old messages. I still use matrix, but I don't have any illusions that it's more secure than tox.
- Arathorn 8y agoWe're not aware of any bugs where Matrix clients lose your e2e keys (other than one where changing your password may cause clients to log out and remove keys for safety). If you saw it keep losing keys, i'm going to guess you configured your browser to delete local storage when you close the tab... in which case, unless you export the keys, we have nowhere else to store them. That said, we've also just implemented the optional ability to encrypt and backup your keys on the server, but obviously comes with other tradeoffs. In terms of security, the core crypto has been audited, as per https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrixs-olm-end-to-end-encryption-security-assessment-released-and-implemented-cross-platform-on-riot-at-last/ https://matrix.org/blog/2016/11/21/matrixs-olm-end-to-end-en...
- im3w1l 8y agoIt hasn't happened in a year (I still use it) so whatever the issue was I don't see it anymore :)
- crtasm 8y agoI tested riot.im in a private Firefox window recently, obvious with hindsight but it didn't occur to me I should export keys and I didn't spot anything in the interface to make me aware or prompt me to action. Great to hear you've added the option for server stored keys now.
- Arathorn 8y agoyeah, it's a tricky one because by the time you've closed the window, it's too late to export keys. The new online key backup stuff landed a few weeks ago on the develop branch, and will be making it onto the main release over the coming weeks :)
- jake_the_third 8y ago> I don't have any illusions that it's more secure than tox. That conclusion doesn't follow. How does the client loosing your key cause you to consider matrix itself as less secure?
- jstanley 8y agohttps://ricochet.im/ https://ricochet.im/ is a great protocol, but the UI could use work.
- mirimir 8y agoYes. Each client runs a Tor .onion service, and there's end-to-end encryption. So arguably, users are mutually anonymous (except for their .onion addresses). But it's only available for Windows, macOS and Linux. On Android, there's Briar, which is similar.[0] But Briar can also connect via Bluetooth and WiFi. That's useful when the Internet is unavailable. But it's bad because user anonymity could be blown. 0) https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/
- jstanley 8y agoI was working on a self-hostable web interface for a while. There's a public instance at https://ricochet-web.org/ https://ricochet-web.org/ but unlike the official client it hasn't been professionally (or otherwise, for that matter) security-tested and is vulnerable in various ways the official client isn't. It also has quite a few known and unknown bugs.
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoI used tox for a while until I realized just how sketchy the devs and community is. Now, I recommend using xmpp(Open fire) over Tor. That allows things like Crankylinuxuser@onion-v3-verylongkey.onion To send messages. And my server can also send messages out via tor gateways or to other torified messaging servers. Tl;Dr. Use secure protocols and combine with Hidden Services.
- im3w1l 8y agoI read about 20 replies of that and it does sound a bit overblown. Yes - the protocol is not perfect, but the flaw is a minor one. It could even be considered a feature request - preserve semblance of security after key compromise. If it can be done sure, by all means! But does not necessitate panic or rushing things - that would be more dangerous.
- woodruffw 8y ago> But does not necessitate panic or rushing things I don't think I suggested either. If anything, Tox was rushed (by a group of 4channers, no less) and many of the flaws in its design are a consequence of that. I don't think enough people are actually using it to warrant panic.
- tylersmith 8y agoIs using 4chan known to compromise one's programming skills?
- berbec 8y ago4chan is known to the State of California to cause certain types of cancer.
- Smithalicious 8y agoI fail to see how its developers being part of [competing tech community] has any relevance to the quality of the program.
- tptacek 8y agoThere aren't a lot of cryptographers who would accept KCI vulnerability as a "feature".
- im3w1l 8y agoResistance to it would be the feature.
- evilaubergine 8y agoright now it's absolutely awful in terms of everything it has set out to do, the internal dev team even knows of a few more security issues that they haven't publicly disclosed yet and have made little effort to resolve t. made the linked website, used to be in dev team
- giancarlostoro 8y agoAlso weirdness with funds being stolen and team splits: https://chefkochblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/05/r-i-p-tox-messenger/ https://chefkochblog.wordpress.com/2018/04/05/r-i-p-tox-mess...
- evilaubergine 8y agoit wasn't much of a team split, just the dev team's resident pakistani computer salesman (stqism) embezzled a bunch of money and ran off, as much as I think Tox is untrustworthy and stupid I can say I'm pretty sure nobody else in Tox was involved with this
- giancarlostoro 8y agoThanks for that bit of insight, it is a confusing story especially when I ran into it. I like the UI of Tox, I wish it were truly solid, but I much rather recommend Pidgin with OTR and IRC / Jabber (although Jitsi is decent in this regard too), or Wire / Signal.
- imaginenore 8y agoThe attack assumes a private key is stolen. Such an assumption breaks most crypto schemes.
- StreamBright 8y agoWhat is the definition of central server? What happens when an adversary eavesdrops on a router in a tier 1 network provider?
- freehunter 8y agoA central server forces all traffic to route through hardware and software owned by the maker of the technology and the attack vector there is usually logging. A router at an ISP is not a central server. The attack you’re speaking of is a real possibility which is why end to end encryption exists. But p2p is meant to solve a different privacy threat than e2ee.
- StreamBright 8y agoSo the central server definition is a server located in a datacenter?
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- rolleiflex 8y agoThis is great — funnily enough, this is a thing my project (https://getaether.net https://getaether.net) is often mistakenly thought of as. I'll link to Tox in my FAQ. Mine is more like a decentralised Usenet, not real time chat.
- dane-pgp 8y agoFor what it's worth, Tox (the chat protocol) is also sometimes confused with this: https://tox.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ https://tox.readthedocs.io/en/latest/ a Python code testing tool.
- deleted 8y ago[deleted]
- nyolfen 8y agoa question -- the faq mention that abuse is prevented via PoW; how does it implement this?
- nv-vn 8y agoWow totally forgot about Aether. I still have it installed on an old laptop somewhere. I remember I really enjoyed posting on there but then I'd have trouble connecting to the network and stopped using it. Will have to check it out again
- p0la 8y agoanyone knows how peer discovery works without any central servers ?
- Vekz 8y agoGreat question, because generally, you need a centralized ICE/STUN/Turn Nat punch through server to connect peers
- rad_gruchalski 8y agoDNS?
- p0la 8y agoI'd be surprised anyone would rely on DNS for security minded applications. If the goal is to have an easy to use and anonymous service, that can resist takedown attempts, DNS would fail you every step of the way.
- rad_gruchalski 8y agoHosting a solution dedicated DNS is not a rocket science these days. Publicly reachable service, that’s a totally different bag of problems.
- evilaubergine 8y agoit has core bootstrap nodeshttps://wiki.tox.chat/users/nodes https://wiki.tox.chat/users/nodes , and a pretty bad DHT formation, so by distributing a few nasty clients with bad bootstrap URLs you could easily cause multiple splits in the network
- p0la 8y agoThx for the link. Do you know if there is some sort of routing taking place ? Or all client are trying to consolidate a full Hash Table ?
- jaimex2 8y agoSurely they could have come up with a name that isn't so close to toxic. I think it will be an uptake barrier.
- imaginenore 8y agoI think the name is clever. Tox = Talks. Pronounced the same.
- jake_the_third 8y ago> I think it will be an uptake barrier. If someone is silly enough to let this be a factor when adopting a new technology, then I'd say that person has more important things to worry about than some encrypted messenger. Fortunately for Tox, the amount of people like this seems very small.
- uniformlyrandom 8y agoThis is not a big problem. The fact that p2p protocols are not push-notification friendly, and can eat through your battery in the background is much bigger issue.
- marknadal 8y agoNice! Pretty easy to roll your own, these days, in less than 90 LOC: https://gist.github.com/amark/7dceae874a20878fdb9e2a8eed109bb5 https://gist.github.com/amark/7dceae874a20878fdb9e2a8eed109b... Here is a quick video demo of it in action: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmdXU82vcbE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmdXU82vcbE Warning! Ugly simple. So glad to see a full featured app like tox, use that instead. But for anyone interested in how they work or building their own... it is all Diffie-Hellman!!! :)
- evilaubergine 8y agoTox in specific lets libsodium/nacl do all the cryptography and provides little above the core methods, the more complex parts were the networking
- marknadal 8y agolibsodium is great! We're considering supporting it in conjunction with WebCrypto. Yeah, networking is hard, but is the main thing we've worked on over the years. We're using WebRTC and fallback to decentralized WebSocket relays (you can use multiple / nothing exclusive, run your own, etc.). What are you guys using?
- dbg31415 8y agoWhat's this have that Signal doesn't?
- uniformlyrandom 8y agoSignal is server-based and not federated, tox is p2p. Matrix seems to be a closer match to what tox can do. > The Signal Protocol is a non-federated cryptographic protocol that can be used to provide end-to-end encryption for voice calls, video calls,[3] and instant messaging conversations. > Tox is a peer-to-peer instant-messaging and video-calling protocol that offers end-to-end encryption. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tox_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signal_Protocol https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(protocol)
- runn1ng 8y agosecurity issues
- CBLT 8y agoA really well designed logo. (There's a running joke/observation that every time 4chan /g/ tries to produce something, they spend all their time debating logo design instead of working on the product. So for this /g/ project to take off, its logo must be so good as to be beyond reproach.)
- crankylinuxuser 8y agoDemands to your phone number/identity, and access to all your metadata. But hey, "Security and privacy"!
- rjf72 8y agoMany people that are interested in privacy and security consider server based software to be problematic. Even when server based software is open source, as Signal is, you are required to trust that what is being run on a server is the same code that they have released. And you are also required to trust that it is the only software they are running as it relates to your usage. This requires substantial trust which in modern times has, time and again, been shown to be something that should not be given. Signal is server based. Tox is serverless. In the case of Signal they also had unusual peculiarities. They have framed themselves as a privacy and security oriented company yet the first thing they require when signing up is a mobile number. And for years they required Google Play Services and were dependent upon Google Cloud Messaging. These sort of things send quite mixed signals, though to Signal's benefit they no longer require Google Play Services. Finally there is one practical issue with centralized services. They need to make money. Servers cost money. And as the popularity of a platform grows, the amount of money they need to earn also continues to grow. And that's just to exist - not to make a profit. For free services their most valuable resource that can be spun into money is user information. Signal for now has managed to get by on donations and grants. The vast majority of their funding coming from the "Open Technology Fund" [1], which is a US government program. If their funding dries up you risk seeing their ideological views change as a means of self preservation, or the entire service become unusable. This is not a problem with decentralized services. Ultimately it all comes down to what you'd prefer - centralized or decentralized. Signal is centralized, Tox is decentralized. Ideologically I believe the future of all digital technology ought and eventually will be decentralized, though the time scale of "future" there is quite immense. Nonetheless, I like to do my small bit today and support decentralized tech whenever possible. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Whisper_Systems#Funding https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Open_Whisper_Systems#Funding
- jdc 8y agoSeems like a decent Skype substitute, at least.
- dang 8y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17686516 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17686516
- doctorfoo 8y agopeople like to point out the weaknesses in this every time it is submitted, but the fact is: it's the only example in its class, and that makes it interesting. it would be amazing to see a funding drive and some experts improve it, but for whatever reason, that is not happening. it seems like any kind of desktop skype alternative takes a back seat to mobile apps