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I could never understand why would someone accept these jobs. What's so great about becoming a manager and work 60h/week? How's that better than 40 a week as a

I could never understand why would someone accept these jobs. What's so great about becoming a manager and work 60h/week? How's that better than 40 a week as a subordinate and letting someone else worry about all the office drama?

bryanrasmussen 8y ago
I'm guessing it is something to do with money in most cases.
- adetrest 8y ago
  1.5x the pay for double the hours isn't a trade-up though.
  - sokoloff 8y ago
    If you're paid 100 units [after-tax] and your expenses are 80 units, you're left with a (higher than average) savings rate of 20% or 20 units of currency. If you double your hours, raise your pay to 150 units and inflate your lifestyle by 25% (from 80 units to 100 units), you are now making 150, spending 100 (with more luxury), and saving 50 units (250% of what you were saving before). That might be considered a trade-up (and is more or less the path I chose).
    - bryanrasmussen 8y ago
      and probably a portion of that luxury is stuff like cleaners and other labor saving services which means that a lot of time that was spent on non remunerative work is now spent on the work.
tfigment 8y ago
Cannot speak for all but usually its money. Many companies cap technical tracks pretty fast while management is uncapped. Next as as you go further in your career then management as a nearly universally considered a valid next step. For me, my manager was fired and rather than having to deal with hiring my boss (for second time), I took the role even though I knew I would dislike the politics/drama.
- natalyarostova 8y ago
  I used to never want to be a manager. Now I'd rather be a manager than have someone incompetent and new tell me what to do. I think this is a common trope.
IMTDb 8y ago
It's just a different set of skills and you create value/feel rewarded in a different manner. It's not better or worse, it's just different and appeals to different kind of people. Take some other example from video games: - Why would anyone pick a healer in an MMO group ? What's so great about becoming a healer ? How's that better than playing a DPS, actually contributing to killing the boss and letting someone else worry about your health bar ? - What is fun about plying support in DOTA ? I mean the fun is being the carry and killing everyone on the other team to win games ? How can anyone willingly waste his gold to buy visibility wards, that is really not fun at all. The healer/support/manager (="helper") position appeals to people who like to focus less on the pure "productive" task at hand. They like to focus on getting a full picture of everything that is happening, anticipating potential issues, fixing them, and allowing the DPS/carry/engineer (="producers") to be in the best possible position so they can perform their job. This can be fun for some people even if you don't see it that way. This often is really not an easy task. This often is critical for the success of the team. And just like there are good and bad "producers" there are good and bad "helpers". The skillset is different, the measure of value creation is different, and the fun is different.
- wushupork 8y ago
  Great analogy. I'm going to use that. I'm currently the "healer" in my "party"
- adetrest 8y ago
  Thank you, that helps me understand.
- shimms 8y ago
  What a fantastic analogy, and aligns almost 100% with why I like management and leadership. I've often struggled to articulate the reasons I enjoy these positions over a "producers" role. This will help - thank you.
- coding123 8y ago
  Also healers get placed in the dungeon ASAP - high priority because there are so few. I play a tank, and feel similar status effects. I want to know the analogy of healers that rage quit (they do so more than DPSs or Tanks) with the entire manager/subordinate thing ;)
bradleyjg 8y ago
Let's say things are humming along swimmingly in your career. You find yourself in a very decent position in a company that has a nice IC ladder. A decade later, you are an expert in the technologies that company uses, are paid well, and have good working conditions. But a recession comes, the company has a couple of bad years, and is taken over by a private equity firm. They decide you are too expensive and you're laid off. You have 15 years experience as an IC, are a master of your craft, and no one wants to hire you. Principal engineers are promoted from within rather than hire from without. You are willing to start lower down the totem poll at a new place, but hiring managers believe that you'll leave at the first chance, or be disgruntled at the pay/seniority cut, or are just plain intimated by you. Realistically you are looking at a couple of decades of contracting. That's not the worst thing in the world, there are some upsides, but it's not the pure IC work you had been hoping for--it means decades of hustling. Now look at the other career path. 6-7 years as an IC, 2-3 years as a engineering lead, 4-5 years as a engineering manager. If you get laid off at that point, besides all the engineering manager positions you can go for, you can also position yourself as a engineering VP / CTO of a smaller company. No one is overqualified for that, and the CEO that does the hiring isn't going to be intimated. I'm not saying that you need to decide that reduced career risk (and probably extra money) are worth moving to the leadership track from the less stressful IC track, but isn't some incomprehensible choice.
- adetrest 8y ago
  > You have 15 years experience as an IC I really hope that by the time I get there and get laid off in a recession or restructuring, I'll be retiring. I love software, but not enough to do it for longer than I have to and for someone else.
  - bradleyjg 8y ago
    If extreme early retirement appeals to you, that's great. But given that this discussion started with "I could never understand ..." you can see that EER isn't for everyone, right?
useful 8y ago
For me it was protecting my people from bullshit drama. Making it so everyone could be effective and fulfilled in their job is a real thing. Most mid and junior level employees think it's bullshit, I did when I was young, but so much happens because people don't know what they want or someone doesn't have budget that is solved by asking people to work late, be on call, or work on weekends because no one said no.

bryanrasmussen 8y ago

I'm guessing it is something to do with money in most cases.

adetrest 8y ago
1.5x the pay for double the hours isn't a trade-up though.
- sokoloff 8y ago
  If you're paid 100 units [after-tax] and your expenses are 80 units, you're left with a (higher than average) savings rate of 20% or 20 units of currency. If you double your hours, raise your pay to 150 units and inflate your lifestyle by 25% (from 80 units to 100 units), you are now making 150, spending 100 (with more luxury), and saving 50 units (250% of what you were saving before). That might be considered a trade-up (and is more or less the path I chose).
  - bryanrasmussen 8y ago
    and probably a portion of that luxury is stuff like cleaners and other labor saving services which means that a lot of time that was spent on non remunerative work is now spent on the work.

tfigment 8y ago

Cannot speak for all but usually its money. Many companies cap technical tracks pretty fast while management is uncapped. Next as as you go further in your career then management as a nearly universally considered a valid next step. For me, my manager was fired and rather than having to deal with hiring my boss (for second time), I took the role even though I knew I would dislike the politics/drama.

natalyarostova 8y ago
I used to never want to be a manager. Now I'd rather be a manager than have someone incompetent and new tell me what to do. I think this is a common trope.

IMTDb 8y ago

It's just a different set of skills and you create value/feel rewarded in a different manner. It's not better or worse, it's just different and appeals to different kind of people. Take some other example from video games: - Why would anyone pick a healer in an MMO group ? What's so great about becoming a healer ? How's that better than playing a DPS, actually contributing to killing the boss and letting someone else worry about your health bar ? - What is fun about plying support in DOTA ? I mean the fun is being the carry and killing everyone on the other team to win games ? How can anyone willingly waste his gold to buy visibility wards, that is really not fun at all. The healer/support/manager (="helper") position appeals to people who like to focus less on the pure "productive" task at hand. They like to focus on getting a full picture of everything that is happening, anticipating potential issues, fixing them, and allowing the DPS/carry/engineer (="producers") to be in the best possible position so they can perform their job. This can be fun for some people even if you don't see it that way. This often is really not an easy task. This often is critical for the success of the team. And just like there are good and bad "producers" there are good and bad "helpers". The skillset is different, the measure of value creation is different, and the fun is different.

wushupork 8y ago
Great analogy. I'm going to use that. I'm currently the "healer" in my "party"
adetrest 8y ago
Thank you, that helps me understand.
shimms 8y ago
What a fantastic analogy, and aligns almost 100% with why I like management and leadership. I've often struggled to articulate the reasons I enjoy these positions over a "producers" role. This will help - thank you.
coding123 8y ago
Also healers get placed in the dungeon ASAP - high priority because there are so few. I play a tank, and feel similar status effects. I want to know the analogy of healers that rage quit (they do so more than DPSs or Tanks) with the entire manager/subordinate thing ;)

bradleyjg 8y ago

Let's say things are humming along swimmingly in your career. You find yourself in a very decent position in a company that has a nice IC ladder. A decade later, you are an expert in the technologies that company uses, are paid well, and have good working conditions. But a recession comes, the company has a couple of bad years, and is taken over by a private equity firm. They decide you are too expensive and you're laid off. You have 15 years experience as an IC, are a master of your craft, and no one wants to hire you. Principal engineers are promoted from within rather than hire from without. You are willing to start lower down the totem poll at a new place, but hiring managers believe that you'll leave at the first chance, or be disgruntled at the pay/seniority cut, or are just plain intimated by you. Realistically you are looking at a couple of decades of contracting. That's not the worst thing in the world, there are some upsides, but it's not the pure IC work you had been hoping for--it means decades of hustling. Now look at the other career path. 6-7 years as an IC, 2-3 years as a engineering lead, 4-5 years as a engineering manager. If you get laid off at that point, besides all the engineering manager positions you can go for, you can also position yourself as a engineering VP / CTO of a smaller company. No one is overqualified for that, and the CEO that does the hiring isn't going to be intimated. I'm not saying that you need to decide that reduced career risk (and probably extra money) are worth moving to the leadership track from the less stressful IC track, but isn't some incomprehensible choice.

adetrest 8y ago
> You have 15 years experience as an IC I really hope that by the time I get there and get laid off in a recession or restructuring, I'll be retiring. I love software, but not enough to do it for longer than I have to and for someone else.
- bradleyjg 8y ago
  If extreme early retirement appeals to you, that's great. But given that this discussion started with "I could never understand ..." you can see that EER isn't for everyone, right?

useful 8y ago

For me it was protecting my people from bullshit drama. Making it so everyone could be effective and fulfilled in their job is a real thing. Most mid and junior level employees think it's bullshit, I did when I was young, but so much happens because people don't know what they want or someone doesn't have budget that is solved by asking people to work late, be on call, or work on weekends because no one said no.