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> Large numbers of women entered the workforce. ... With that being the norm now, prices are higher and so people generally aren't financially better off. Wome

by rixed 8y ago

> Large numbers of women entered the workforce. ... With that being the norm now, prices are higher and so people generally aren't financially better off. Women are financially better off.

burfog 8y ago
Before: did the housework, prices were low After: doing the housework, prices are high, also need to work to cover the higher prices, and much of the extra money goes to childcare and transportation and other work expenses That doesn't look like "financially better off" to me. It looks more like being enslaved to landlords and corporate America.
- rixed 8y ago
  I get why, in a world where women depend on men for income, housework fall on women (not only housework but other even nastier things). But in a world where women earn their own income I don't think your can continue to assume that. It's probably more like: Before: was enslaved to men. After: is enslaved to landlords and corporations. That's still progress in many cases, I think.
  - lin19 8y ago
    That "progress" came with things like: Less than replacement level fertility rates More unstable families Higher single men -> leading to higher suicide rates among men Generally unhappier women in general But it's all great because we eliminated the role of a housewife and a mother.
    - rixed 8y ago
      > Generally unhappier women in general Sounds dubious. Data source for that one?
      - lin19 8y ago
        I wish what I said were fiction: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/the-chart-that-shows-how-feminism-is-ruining-womens-lives/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/the-chart-that-s... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-rights-happiness-wellbeing-gender-gap https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-...
        rixed 8y ago
        The data provided in the first link show that: 1. women are happier every year since ~2010; 2. the gap are closing between women and men reported happiness; 3. we have no data prior to ~2010 so we cannot compare with a situation where women were predominantly housewives (you'd have to go much furhter in the past for the UK I guess). So I don't see how this could support the theory that working women are less happy than housewives. The piece from the Guardian I found more interesting if only for the longer time span considered. And it sites the "dual burden" of work + house chores (trial, with childcare) as the source of the decrease (relative to men) of women happiness. which makes sense. Especially the part about Switzerland is enlightening. But what is compered here is present working women vs present housewives. How would compare the average present women to the average women from 60 years ago is still unknown, and it is not beyond imagination that housewives today also benefit from the more equal standing/rights between men and women in the present time. So, still not convinced that we should go back to a world where women are not expected to work :)
  - tomjen3 8y ago
    Enslaved to men is a kinda harsh way to look at it, as the men were equally enslaved to provide the income the women used. But it is also not clear to me that the average woman wouldn't rather be home with her kids, cooking etc than working wallmart if she didn't need the money.
    - rixed 8y ago
      Depends with each individual cases I presume. “Few tasks are more like the torture of Sisyphus than housework, with its endless repetition: the clean becomes soiled, the soiled is made clean, over and over, day after day.” ― Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex
      - tomjen3 8y ago
        The same can be said for a lot of jobs though, restocker at wall mart comes to mind, with the added benefit of bad treatment by the customers.

by rixed 8y ago

> Large numbers of women entered the workforce. ... With that being the norm now, prices are higher and so people generally aren't financially better off. Women are financially better off.

burfog 8y ago

Before: did the housework, prices were low After: doing the housework, prices are high, also need to work to cover the higher prices, and much of the extra money goes to childcare and transportation and other work expenses That doesn't look like "financially better off" to me. It looks more like being enslaved to landlords and corporate America.

rixed 8y ago
I get why, in a world where women depend on men for income, housework fall on women (not only housework but other even nastier things). But in a world where women earn their own income I don't think your can continue to assume that. It's probably more like: Before: was enslaved to men. After: is enslaved to landlords and corporations. That's still progress in many cases, I think.
- lin19 8y ago
  That "progress" came with things like: Less than replacement level fertility rates More unstable families Higher single men -> leading to higher suicide rates among men Generally unhappier women in general But it's all great because we eliminated the role of a housewife and a mother.
  - rixed 8y ago
    > Generally unhappier women in general Sounds dubious. Data source for that one?
    - lin19 8y ago
      I wish what I said were fiction: https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/the-chart-that-shows-how-feminism-is-ruining-womens-lives/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/07/the-chart-that-s... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-rights-happiness-wellbeing-gender-gap https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2016/may/18/womens-...
      - rixed 8y ago
        The data provided in the first link show that: 1. women are happier every year since ~2010; 2. the gap are closing between women and men reported happiness; 3. we have no data prior to ~2010 so we cannot compare with a situation where women were predominantly housewives (you'd have to go much furhter in the past for the UK I guess). So I don't see how this could support the theory that working women are less happy than housewives. The piece from the Guardian I found more interesting if only for the longer time span considered. And it sites the "dual burden" of work + house chores (trial, with childcare) as the source of the decrease (relative to men) of women happiness. which makes sense. Especially the part about Switzerland is enlightening. But what is compered here is present working women vs present housewives. How would compare the average present women to the average women from 60 years ago is still unknown, and it is not beyond imagination that housewives today also benefit from the more equal standing/rights between men and women in the present time. So, still not convinced that we should go back to a world where women are not expected to work :)
- tomjen3 8y ago
  Enslaved to men is a kinda harsh way to look at it, as the men were equally enslaved to provide the income the women used. But it is also not clear to me that the average woman wouldn't rather be home with her kids, cooking etc than working wallmart if she didn't need the money.
  - rixed 8y ago
    Depends with each individual cases I presume. “Few tasks are more like the torture of Sisyphus than housework, with its endless repetition: the clean becomes soiled, the soiled is made clean, over and over, day after day.” ― Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex
    - tomjen3 8y ago
      The same can be said for a lot of jobs though, restocker at wall mart comes to mind, with the added benefit of bad treatment by the customers.