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Economic arguments (“treat people better so you can make more money”) are disgusting and morally bankrupt to a large chunk of the social justice community, part

Economic arguments (“treat people better so you can make more money”) are disgusting and morally bankrupt to a large chunk of the social justice community, particularly those who see all capitalist business and employment relationships as fundamentally exploitative. There’s a strong undercurrent of hatred for the corporate D&I ideology. Viewing the world primarily through the lens of a struggle between oppressed and oppressor demographic groups isn’t uncommon, but other politics do exist.

fzeroracer 8y ago
Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though. While it's absolutely true that smaller companies can do a lot better in treating their employees right, the fact of the matter is that there is an asymmetrical relationship between an employee and the company due to a large power gap between the two. And the issue can be worse with people that are working doubly hard to escape poverty or just to survive. Those are the people that cannot afford to lose the single opportunity they've received, which means they are often further exploited through lower wages, fewer benefits and so forth. Considering I've been in that position myself, there were times when I had a deep fear of losing absolutely everything.
- madhadron 8y ago
  > Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though. Not necessarily. There's a whole world of employee owned companies, partnerships, and the like which are not fundamentally exploitative.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    That's a whole 'nother can of worms though; employee-owned companies can still treat new employees badly depending on how their system is set up. Plus they're an incredibly small fraction of the overall working world we participate in and at most would be an exception to the rule and not the norm. Though I would say that non-profits and things like you mentioned are generally more inclined to treat their employees fair.
  - barry-cotter 8y ago
    There are no free lunches. None of those examples work as well as pure employer employee relationship companies, otherwise there would be many, many more of them. A works with more cöops and partnerships would be poorer because they’re just less efficient.
- clairity 8y ago
  > “Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though.” that you a priori assume this makes me sad. a company has no fundamental right to a power differential over an employee. an employment agreement is between two equal parties looking for a fair value exchange. with that said, of course power differentials often exist in those situations (unfortunately), but it doesn’t always have to. that’s one of the reasons everyone should always apply to multiple jobs at once, and hopefully get multiple offers, so you have leverage in the employment negotiations. and the best managed organizations consider managers to be support staff with decision-coalescing responsibilities rather than overlords.
  - fzeroracer 8y ago
    A great example of the power vacuum however is non-competes and how prevalent they are in our industry. It's not just one person negotiating with another, it's one person negotiating with a company and an entire industry. An entire system designed to swing the balance in the favor of the company. With my work experience the balance shifted a bit to me, giving me options to find companies without non-competes. When I first got started however, I didn't have an option to negotiate nor did I have the financial backing to challenge a non-compete if it ever became an issue. Ultimately this is where unions should come into play, but I highly doubt we'll ever see the tech industry unionize.
  - jodrellblank 8y ago
    an employment agreement is between two equal parties looking for a fair value exchange. That you can believe and type that with a straight face, makes me boggle. Ideally, maybe. Employee-owned cooperatives, maybe. One side is a non-human entity, a multi-multi-millionaire with on-tap access to an economy full of high spec legal, financial, and any other kind of consultant. Working on decades of procedures and organizational habits buit from the experiences of hundreds of humans, with many human brains and many years of time-horizon to research any given topic, fronted by the humans selected for being good at "playing the selction game" - convincing, manipulating, looking the part, extracting as much as possible from employees. The other side is a person, who can spare a small fraction of one human brain, with very limited money and access to resources, who has a Hobson's choice of "work or die of starvation". It isn't two equal parties. It's barely even two /comparable/ parties. and when was the last time you talked to someone who felt their employement was "fair value exchange"? Someone at the pub who felt their employer paid them enough, didn't ask too much of them - and wasn't boasting about having an unusually good situation? In fact, when was the last time you talked to someone who /didn't/ dream of getting enough money to never work again? Would that be such a popular meme if people generally felt fairly treated, equal partners, in value-creating systems they participated in by choice?
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  > Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though. While it's absolutely true that smaller companies can do a lot better in treating their employees right, the fact of the matter is that there is an asymmetrical relationship between an employee and the company due to a large power gap between the two. Yes and no. I don't think our society does enough to protect and help the people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, for the reasons you state. But, I also think if it weren't for our capitalist system, these same people likely wouldn't have any jobs at all, and that a lousy job is usually better than none. I'm absolutely not in favor of tearing down the entire capitalist system, as your parent comment implies. And I certainly don't think it's immoral to look at diversity hiring as a competitive advantage—quite the contrary, in fact.
Wowfunhappy 8y ago
> Economic arguments (“treat people better so you can make more money”) are disgusting and morally bankrupt to a large chunk of the social justice community, particularly those who see all capitalist business and employment relationships as fundamentally exploitative. There’s a strong undercurrent of hatred for the corporate D&I ideology. I'm tempted to ask for sources, but I recognize that's not really possible or fair with this kind of statement. Suffice to say, I fundamentally disagree with your assessment, and I think you're painting a large group with a very broad brush.
- closeparen 8y ago
  The Facebook walls of my leftist-activist classmates are long gone, but here’s an example: https://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity https://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity
  - Wowfunhappy 8y ago
    The opinions of a few people in a very large population—or even the opinions of five, ten, or twenty people—do not allow you to ascribe those views to everyone in the group. I know I could find examples of right-wing nuts saying women are inherently poor engineers, or something like that. Now, if you're aware of a gallop poll that randomly sampled self-identified "leftist-activists" and asked "Agree or disagree, is most capitalist business morally bankrupt?", that would get us somewhere. Since I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist, this discussion is a bit difficult. Maybe I shouldn't be posting this comment, since I clearly don't have much useful to add. I don't know. I guess I primarily want to say, I'd really encourage actively listening to (a diverse set of people in) the groups you describe, if you're not doing so already. I suspect, based on my own imperfect and unprovable anecdotal evidence, that you will find a much broader set of viewpoints than what you're describing.
    - closeparen 8y ago
      The parent did not back their assertions about “what is at the core of those movements” with any polling. If my claim is inappropriate, than so is the one it’s responding to. There is sort of a semantic game here: I would call those with more moderate/mainstream stances “liberal” and not include their views in a characterization of what “social justice warrior” means. The same way you draw a distinction between anyone right of center and a “right-wing nut.”
krrishd 8y ago
I'm pro-"economic arguments", but if you're a victim of being undervalued, especially for some immutable part of your identity (such as race), I can see how it'd be enraging that the primary defense of you relies on your economic value to an employer rather than a more innate sense of worth. Of course, it's ineffective and self-sabotaging to try to avoid the economic side (mainly because the issues /are/ significantly economic, in addition to cultural), but I think at least sympathy is warranted for the social justice community's view on it.
40acres 8y ago
There are many ways to skin this cat: people characterized online as SJWs are mostly persuaded by the push for equal opportunity, neo-liberals will be persuaded by the untapped economic potential that is covered up by discrimination. There's an argument to be made to libertarians, etc. etc. The fact of the matter is that our society is based on western liberal ideas, core to that idea is the freedom, liberty, and equality. You simply can't square America's past with that idea and if you believe in the western liberal philosophy then in my view you can be persuaded to see the value in these movements.
- OCASM 8y ago
  No, people who are characterized online as SJWs are mostly persuaded by the push of equality of outcome and hatred of white people, specially men. Core to the west is the idea of equality under the law, not equality of outcome/opportunity.

fzeroracer 8y ago

Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though. While it's absolutely true that smaller companies can do a lot better in treating their employees right, the fact of the matter is that there is an asymmetrical relationship between an employee and the company due to a large power gap between the two. And the issue can be worse with people that are working doubly hard to escape poverty or just to survive. Those are the people that cannot afford to lose the single opportunity they've received, which means they are often further exploited through lower wages, fewer benefits and so forth. Considering I've been in that position myself, there were times when I had a deep fear of losing absolutely everything.

madhadron 8y ago
> Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though. Not necessarily. There's a whole world of employee owned companies, partnerships, and the like which are not fundamentally exploitative.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  That's a whole 'nother can of worms though; employee-owned companies can still treat new employees badly depending on how their system is set up. Plus they're an incredibly small fraction of the overall working world we participate in and at most would be an exception to the rule and not the norm. Though I would say that non-profits and things like you mentioned are generally more inclined to treat their employees fair.
- barry-cotter 8y ago
  There are no free lunches. None of those examples work as well as pure employer employee relationship companies, otherwise there would be many, many more of them. A works with more cöops and partnerships would be poorer because they’re just less efficient.
clairity 8y ago
> “Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though.” that you a priori assume this makes me sad. a company has no fundamental right to a power differential over an employee. an employment agreement is between two equal parties looking for a fair value exchange. with that said, of course power differentials often exist in those situations (unfortunately), but it doesn’t always have to. that’s one of the reasons everyone should always apply to multiple jobs at once, and hopefully get multiple offers, so you have leverage in the employment negotiations. and the best managed organizations consider managers to be support staff with decision-coalescing responsibilities rather than overlords.
- fzeroracer 8y ago
  A great example of the power vacuum however is non-competes and how prevalent they are in our industry. It's not just one person negotiating with another, it's one person negotiating with a company and an entire industry. An entire system designed to swing the balance in the favor of the company. With my work experience the balance shifted a bit to me, giving me options to find companies without non-competes. When I first got started however, I didn't have an option to negotiate nor did I have the financial backing to challenge a non-compete if it ever became an issue. Ultimately this is where unions should come into play, but I highly doubt we'll ever see the tech industry unionize.
- jodrellblank 8y ago
  an employment agreement is between two equal parties looking for a fair value exchange. That you can believe and type that with a straight face, makes me boggle. Ideally, maybe. Employee-owned cooperatives, maybe. One side is a non-human entity, a multi-multi-millionaire with on-tap access to an economy full of high spec legal, financial, and any other kind of consultant. Working on decades of procedures and organizational habits buit from the experiences of hundreds of humans, with many human brains and many years of time-horizon to research any given topic, fronted by the humans selected for being good at "playing the selction game" - convincing, manipulating, looking the part, extracting as much as possible from employees. The other side is a person, who can spare a small fraction of one human brain, with very limited money and access to resources, who has a Hobson's choice of "work or die of starvation". It isn't two equal parties. It's barely even two /comparable/ parties. and when was the last time you talked to someone who felt their employement was "fair value exchange"? Someone at the pub who felt their employer paid them enough, didn't ask too much of them - and wasn't boasting about having an unusually good situation? In fact, when was the last time you talked to someone who /didn't/ dream of getting enough money to never work again? Would that be such a popular meme if people generally felt fairly treated, equal partners, in value-creating systems they participated in by choice?
Wowfunhappy 8y ago
> Employment relationships are fundamentally exploitative though. While it's absolutely true that smaller companies can do a lot better in treating their employees right, the fact of the matter is that there is an asymmetrical relationship between an employee and the company due to a large power gap between the two. Yes and no. I don't think our society does enough to protect and help the people at the bottom of the socioeconomic ladder, for the reasons you state. But, I also think if it weren't for our capitalist system, these same people likely wouldn't have any jobs at all, and that a lousy job is usually better than none. I'm absolutely not in favor of tearing down the entire capitalist system, as your parent comment implies. And I certainly don't think it's immoral to look at diversity hiring as a competitive advantage—quite the contrary, in fact.

Wowfunhappy 8y ago

> Economic arguments (“treat people better so you can make more money”) are disgusting and morally bankrupt to a large chunk of the social justice community, particularly those who see all capitalist business and employment relationships as fundamentally exploitative. There’s a strong undercurrent of hatred for the corporate D&I ideology. I'm tempted to ask for sources, but I recognize that's not really possible or fair with this kind of statement. Suffice to say, I fundamentally disagree with your assessment, and I think you're painting a large group with a very broad brush.

closeparen 8y ago
The Facebook walls of my leftist-activist classmates are long gone, but here’s an example: https://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity https://jacobinmag.com/2011/01/let-them-eat-diversity
- Wowfunhappy 8y ago
  The opinions of a few people in a very large population—or even the opinions of five, ten, or twenty people—do not allow you to ascribe those views to everyone in the group. I know I could find examples of right-wing nuts saying women are inherently poor engineers, or something like that. Now, if you're aware of a gallop poll that randomly sampled self-identified "leftist-activists" and asked "Agree or disagree, is most capitalist business morally bankrupt?", that would get us somewhere. Since I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist, this discussion is a bit difficult. Maybe I shouldn't be posting this comment, since I clearly don't have much useful to add. I don't know. I guess I primarily want to say, I'd really encourage actively listening to (a diverse set of people in) the groups you describe, if you're not doing so already. I suspect, based on my own imperfect and unprovable anecdotal evidence, that you will find a much broader set of viewpoints than what you're describing.
  - closeparen 8y ago
    The parent did not back their assertions about “what is at the core of those movements” with any polling. If my claim is inappropriate, than so is the one it’s responding to. There is sort of a semantic game here: I would call those with more moderate/mainstream stances “liberal” and not include their views in a characterization of what “social justice warrior” means. The same way you draw a distinction between anyone right of center and a “right-wing nut.”

krrishd 8y ago

I'm pro-"economic arguments", but if you're a victim of being undervalued, especially for some immutable part of your identity (such as race), I can see how it'd be enraging that the primary defense of you relies on your economic value to an employer rather than a more innate sense of worth. Of course, it's ineffective and self-sabotaging to try to avoid the economic side (mainly because the issues /are/ significantly economic, in addition to cultural), but I think at least sympathy is warranted for the social justice community's view on it.

40acres 8y ago

There are many ways to skin this cat: people characterized online as SJWs are mostly persuaded by the push for equal opportunity, neo-liberals will be persuaded by the untapped economic potential that is covered up by discrimination. There's an argument to be made to libertarians, etc. etc. The fact of the matter is that our society is based on western liberal ideas, core to that idea is the freedom, liberty, and equality. You simply can't square America's past with that idea and if you believe in the western liberal philosophy then in my view you can be persuaded to see the value in these movements.

OCASM 8y ago
No, people who are characterized online as SJWs are mostly persuaded by the push of equality of outcome and hatred of white people, specially men. Core to the west is the idea of equality under the law, not equality of outcome/opportunity.