5 ms·

Both projects seem to put the blame on the other project. IMO, there are at least two other factions that can be blamed equally well. First, nvidia for not pro

by bhaak 8y ago

Both projects seem to put the blame on the other project. IMO, there are at least two other factions that can be blamed equally well. First, nvidia for not providing OSS drivers and second, the user who runs an OS on hardware that can't be properly supported on this OS at the moment. For years I have the rule that I prefer hardware that has proper Linux support. Even going a bit further that I try not to buy hardware that doesn't have OSS drivers unless there really is no other option (nowadays, that means mostly smartphones).

nickysielicki 8y ago
> nvidia for not providing OSS drivers It's worse than this. Nvidia does not merely not provide open source drivers, they actively preclude work on Nouveau. Phoronix link: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-XDC2017 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-...
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- zozbot123 8y ago
  Well, not quite. The charitable way to put it is that they are requiring signed firmware in hardware, in order to help stem fraud by 3rd party resellers (where some card model X is sold to naïve buyers as a more desirable model Y, with a hacked firmware to match) and project noveau is obviously impacted.
  - SXX 8y ago
    Problem is that Nvidia did much more than just signing firmware: * Separated firmware that needed for basic and fully functional driver and given Nouveau only bits they wanted. * Obfuscated and hidden firmware files within the driver binaries so they harder to extract. * Changed loading process so GPU read it via DMA to make reverse engineering of firmware loading harder. It's pretty clear that all of that was exclusively done to harm Nouveau.
- bhaak 8y ago
  Ouch, that's mean. IMHO the only way to react to that is to close down shop. Ideally including Linux throwing out support for Nvidia cards. I have a strong opinion on this as I was involved a few years ago in the Kindle homebrew community. After a while I decided that my time could be used better than on a product by a company that tries to prevent us from making his product better and more interesting to its users. There is so much energy and time wasted when you have to fight against the manufacturing company and in the case of a graphics card, the result is that it just works as well as the other graphics card option that is fully supported OOTB. And then that's just for a piece of hardware that you can replace on average for a few hundred bucks. Is that really worth the hassle?
  - zanny 8y ago
    I've personally actively avoided buying anything with Nvidia hardware in it for 8 years now because of how awful their software business is. That has meant I've even skipped over tablets and phones using their chips and will never buy a Nintendo Switch because... well... firstly consoles are bullshit crippling perfectly good computers with proprietary OSes but secondly because it has an Nvidia chip in it. I tell everyone I know not to buy Nvidia, I have built gaming computers both professionally and for family that I've actively advised against buying Nvidia parts for because of their business practices, and when I buy notebooks its a real PITA to get one without some Nvidia GPU in it but I do that too. But Linux cannot "throw out" support for Nvidia. Nvidias driver is wholly independent of Linux, its why its such a PITA to work with. Its a DKMS blob driver and way too much other useful stuff depends on that interface to break it just to stop Nvidia. Fortunately nobody is going out of their way to support Nvidia either, such as their stupid attempt to fragment Wayland development with eglstreams nonsense. The most valuable thing any of us can do is constantly decry Nvidia for being the reprehensible company they are and use what influence we have over those we know to distance them from buying their products the same way you should distance friends and family from buying Nestle or Exxon products or should avoid shopping at Walmart.
    - tntn 8y ago
      Would you mind giving an overview of their reprehensible business practices for those of us who just buy GPUs without following the companies?
- wolfgke 8y ago
  > It's worse than this. Nvidia does not merely not provide open source drivers, they actively preclude work on Nouveau. If the noveau developers had true hacker spirit, they would move nouveau development into the darknet.
izacus 8y ago
> First, nvidia for not providing OSS drivers and second, the user who runs an OS on hardware that can't be properly supported on this OS at the moment. nVidia does provide perfectly working closed source drivers on Linux though - how is it their fault that some 3rd party implementation of the drivers doesn't work in a stable manner?
- bhaak 8y ago
  Define "perfectly working". If I download the Linux sources, compile the kernel and install it, there is no official Nvidia driver to be seen. I didn't say that Nvidia is at fault for the state of the nouveau driver. I said they are at fault for not providing OSS drivers. Nvidia doesn't want to play by the rules of Linux development but they still want to be on Linux. That's legally possible but why should the user or distro manager give Nvidia a pass here when other companies play by the rules? Think about it. Which components would you be willing to download drivers for if they weren't OSS? Your monitor? Your sound card? Your harddisk? Your network card (oops)? Your mouse or keyboard?
  - gmueckl 8y ago
    If you download the current Windows ISO image and install that offline, you won't get a proper driver for your nVidia card either. Yet, this is accepted as normal. Some Linux distributions that do not hamper themselves artificially on philosophical grounds offer nvidia binary drivers in their package repositories like they do with every other driver they contain. Your focus on the kernel sources is too narrow. There absolutely was a time when you had to download all these drivers you mention separately - for Windows. And people put up with it. I think even today the Windows installer is forced to offer an option to install 3rd party RAID controller drivers into the installation environment...
    - pard68 8y ago
      Parent is referring to the fact the Linux drivers are meant to be baked into the kernel and Nvidia doesn't wish to play ball. You can't compare Linux and Windows when it comes to drivers, they have different methods of providing those drivers.

by bhaak 8y ago

nickysielicki 8y ago

> nvidia for not providing OSS drivers It's worse than this. Nvidia does not merely not provide open source drivers, they actively preclude work on Nouveau. Phoronix link: https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-XDC2017 https://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=news_item&px=Nouveau-...

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
zozbot123 8y ago
Well, not quite. The charitable way to put it is that they are requiring signed firmware in hardware, in order to help stem fraud by 3rd party resellers (where some card model X is sold to naïve buyers as a more desirable model Y, with a hacked firmware to match) and project noveau is obviously impacted.
- SXX 8y ago
  Problem is that Nvidia did much more than just signing firmware: * Separated firmware that needed for basic and fully functional driver and given Nouveau only bits they wanted. * Obfuscated and hidden firmware files within the driver binaries so they harder to extract. * Changed loading process so GPU read it via DMA to make reverse engineering of firmware loading harder. It's pretty clear that all of that was exclusively done to harm Nouveau.
bhaak 8y ago
Ouch, that's mean. IMHO the only way to react to that is to close down shop. Ideally including Linux throwing out support for Nvidia cards. I have a strong opinion on this as I was involved a few years ago in the Kindle homebrew community. After a while I decided that my time could be used better than on a product by a company that tries to prevent us from making his product better and more interesting to its users. There is so much energy and time wasted when you have to fight against the manufacturing company and in the case of a graphics card, the result is that it just works as well as the other graphics card option that is fully supported OOTB. And then that's just for a piece of hardware that you can replace on average for a few hundred bucks. Is that really worth the hassle?
- zanny 8y ago
  I've personally actively avoided buying anything with Nvidia hardware in it for 8 years now because of how awful their software business is. That has meant I've even skipped over tablets and phones using their chips and will never buy a Nintendo Switch because... well... firstly consoles are bullshit crippling perfectly good computers with proprietary OSes but secondly because it has an Nvidia chip in it. I tell everyone I know not to buy Nvidia, I have built gaming computers both professionally and for family that I've actively advised against buying Nvidia parts for because of their business practices, and when I buy notebooks its a real PITA to get one without some Nvidia GPU in it but I do that too. But Linux cannot "throw out" support for Nvidia. Nvidias driver is wholly independent of Linux, its why its such a PITA to work with. Its a DKMS blob driver and way too much other useful stuff depends on that interface to break it just to stop Nvidia. Fortunately nobody is going out of their way to support Nvidia either, such as their stupid attempt to fragment Wayland development with eglstreams nonsense. The most valuable thing any of us can do is constantly decry Nvidia for being the reprehensible company they are and use what influence we have over those we know to distance them from buying their products the same way you should distance friends and family from buying Nestle or Exxon products or should avoid shopping at Walmart.
  - tntn 8y ago
    Would you mind giving an overview of their reprehensible business practices for those of us who just buy GPUs without following the companies?
wolfgke 8y ago
> It's worse than this. Nvidia does not merely not provide open source drivers, they actively preclude work on Nouveau. If the noveau developers had true hacker spirit, they would move nouveau development into the darknet.

izacus 8y ago

> First, nvidia for not providing OSS drivers and second, the user who runs an OS on hardware that can't be properly supported on this OS at the moment. nVidia does provide perfectly working closed source drivers on Linux though - how is it their fault that some 3rd party implementation of the drivers doesn't work in a stable manner?

bhaak 8y ago
Define "perfectly working". If I download the Linux sources, compile the kernel and install it, there is no official Nvidia driver to be seen. I didn't say that Nvidia is at fault for the state of the nouveau driver. I said they are at fault for not providing OSS drivers. Nvidia doesn't want to play by the rules of Linux development but they still want to be on Linux. That's legally possible but why should the user or distro manager give Nvidia a pass here when other companies play by the rules? Think about it. Which components would you be willing to download drivers for if they weren't OSS? Your monitor? Your sound card? Your harddisk? Your network card (oops)? Your mouse or keyboard?
- gmueckl 8y ago
  If you download the current Windows ISO image and install that offline, you won't get a proper driver for your nVidia card either. Yet, this is accepted as normal. Some Linux distributions that do not hamper themselves artificially on philosophical grounds offer nvidia binary drivers in their package repositories like they do with every other driver they contain. Your focus on the kernel sources is too narrow. There absolutely was a time when you had to download all these drivers you mention separately - for Windows. And people put up with it. I think even today the Windows installer is forced to offer an option to install 3rd party RAID controller drivers into the installation environment...
  - pard68 8y ago
    Parent is referring to the fact the Linux drivers are meant to be baked into the kernel and Nvidia doesn't wish to play ball. You can't compare Linux and Windows when it comes to drivers, they have different methods of providing those drivers.