4 ms·

Dumb question, how can a non-citizen sue the government in an American court?

empath75 8y ago
For the most part, any legal resident of the us enjoys the same rights as citizens.
ComputerGuru 8y ago
Not a dumb question at all. Courts have been reluctant to back that precedent/law in recent years. Filings get around it by naming individuals rather than the US government. In this case, it was entered as DR. RAHINAH IBRAHIM, an individual, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY; TERRORIST SCREENING CENTER; FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION; CHRISTOPHER A. WRAY,* in his official capacity as Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, in her official capacity as Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security; MATTHEW G. WHITAKER, in his official capacity as Acting Attorney General; CHARLES H. KABLE IV, in his official capacity as Director of the Terrorist Screening Center; JAY S. TABB, JR., in his official capacity as Executive Assistant Director of the FBI’s National Security Branch; NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER; RUSSELL “RUSS” TRAVERS, in his official capacity as Director of the National Counterterrorism Center; DEPARTMENT OF STATE; MICHAEL R. POMPEO, in his official capacity as Secretary of State; UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
ehasbrouck 8y ago
This was one of the issues raised, and resolved in Dr. Ibrahim's favor, in the second of the three appeals to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in this case. The court found that she had sufficient connection to the US (including having lived in the US for years, and having children who were born in the US and are US citizens) to give her legal "standing" to raise these issues. However, non-US citizens outside the US generally don;t have any right to challenge denials of US visas in US courts, which is why she remains barred from the US with no way to challenge that. (It's possible that one of her children could raise that issue in a US court, but they are afraid that if they they return to the US, the US might put them too on the no-fly list again, trapping them in the US.)
- dane-pgp 8y ago
  I'm not sure if being "trapped" in the US is the biggest concern for her US-citizen children visiting America. Couldn't they travel by land from Canada? Hopefully them bringing such a case would cost less than $4 million and 14 years.
  - ehasbrouck 8y ago
    People have bene prevented from flying between Canada and Europe becuase of objections from the US government. So being able to cross from the US to Canada (assuming Canada would let her in, which isn't assured if she is a US but not Canadian citizen), that wouldn't guarantee being able to get back to her home and family and profession in Malaysia.
    - dane-pgp 8y ago
      I'd be interested to read an article about people being prevented from flying between Canada and Europe because of the US government. I think I remember a case of Canada refusing to let someone enter as part of a pre-booked journey which had a leg that took them into the US, but even then, I don't suppose that the affected passenger was a US citizen. Similarly I don't know if there are cases where Canada has refused entry to a US citizen that isn't a wanted criminal (suspect) in the US or guilty of something that Canada themselves object to. We could certainly imagine all sorts of extreme scenarios, such as the entire family secretly being spies for China, and the US tipping off the Canadians, but neither country being able to publicly reveal this, but -- assuming that these children are just innocent victims of an abusive bureaucracy -- I'd like to see them launch a case in the US. There may be many good reasons for them not doing so, but I don't think that their ability to travel to Canada (from Europe, for example) nor their ability to travel by land between the US and Canada, is the limiting factor.
      - ehasbrouck 8y ago
        "I'd be interested to read an article about people being prevented from flying between Canada and Europe because of the US government." Here you go: https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/02/16/british-man-marooned-in-canada-because-of-us-no-fly-list/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/02/16/british-man-marooned-... https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/03/18/canadian-denied-passage-home-from-germany-because-of-us-no-fly-list/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/03/18/canadian-denied-passa... https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/05/25/us-intervenes-to-block-uk-to-canada-trip-by-ex-gitmo-prisoner/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/05/25/us-intervenes-to-bloc... None of these people were scheduled to fly to, from, or via the USA. There have also been people denied passage on fligths between other countries, merely becuase they were scheduled to pass through US airspace without landing. But that's a different issue from the incidents reported in the links above: https://papersplease.org/wp/2009/05/16/air-france-passenger-data-and-no-fly-orders/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2009/05/16/air-france-passenger-... https://papersplease.org/wp/2010/06/07/another-paris-mexico-flight-barred-from-us-airspace/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2010/06/07/another-paris-mexico-... https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/07/25/mexico-barcelona-flight-barred-from-overflying-the-us/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/07/25/mexico-barcelona-flig...

For the most part, any legal resident of the us enjoys the same rights as citizens.

Not a dumb question at all. Courts have been reluctant to back that precedent/law in recent years. Filings get around it by naming individuals rather than the US government. In this case, it was entered as DR. RAHINAH IBRAHIM, an individual, Plaintiff-Appellant, v. U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY; TERRORIST SCREENING CENTER; FEDERAL BUREAU OF INVESTIGATION; CHRISTOPHER A. WRAY,* in his official capacity as Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation; KIRSTJEN NIELSEN, in her official capacity as Secretary of the Department of Homeland Security; MATTHEW G. WHITAKER, in his official capacity as Acting Attorney General; CHARLES H. KABLE IV, in his official capacity as Director of the Terrorist Screening Center; JAY S. TABB, JR., in his official capacity as Executive Assistant Director of the FBI’s National Security Branch; NATIONAL COUNTERTERRORISM CENTER; RUSSELL “RUSS” TRAVERS, in his official capacity as Director of the National Counterterrorism Center; DEPARTMENT OF STATE; MICHAEL R. POMPEO, in his official capacity as Secretary of State; UNITED STATES OF AMERICA

ehasbrouck 8y ago

This was one of the issues raised, and resolved in Dr. Ibrahim's favor, in the second of the three appeals to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in this case. The court found that she had sufficient connection to the US (including having lived in the US for years, and having children who were born in the US and are US citizens) to give her legal "standing" to raise these issues. However, non-US citizens outside the US generally don;t have any right to challenge denials of US visas in US courts, which is why she remains barred from the US with no way to challenge that. (It's possible that one of her children could raise that issue in a US court, but they are afraid that if they they return to the US, the US might put them too on the no-fly list again, trapping them in the US.)

dane-pgp 8y ago
I'm not sure if being "trapped" in the US is the biggest concern for her US-citizen children visiting America. Couldn't they travel by land from Canada? Hopefully them bringing such a case would cost less than $4 million and 14 years.
- ehasbrouck 8y ago
  People have bene prevented from flying between Canada and Europe becuase of objections from the US government. So being able to cross from the US to Canada (assuming Canada would let her in, which isn't assured if she is a US but not Canadian citizen), that wouldn't guarantee being able to get back to her home and family and profession in Malaysia.
  - dane-pgp 8y ago
    I'd be interested to read an article about people being prevented from flying between Canada and Europe because of the US government. I think I remember a case of Canada refusing to let someone enter as part of a pre-booked journey which had a leg that took them into the US, but even then, I don't suppose that the affected passenger was a US citizen. Similarly I don't know if there are cases where Canada has refused entry to a US citizen that isn't a wanted criminal (suspect) in the US or guilty of something that Canada themselves object to. We could certainly imagine all sorts of extreme scenarios, such as the entire family secretly being spies for China, and the US tipping off the Canadians, but neither country being able to publicly reveal this, but -- assuming that these children are just innocent victims of an abusive bureaucracy -- I'd like to see them launch a case in the US. There may be many good reasons for them not doing so, but I don't think that their ability to travel to Canada (from Europe, for example) nor their ability to travel by land between the US and Canada, is the limiting factor.
    - ehasbrouck 8y ago
      "I'd be interested to read an article about people being prevented from flying between Canada and Europe because of the US government." Here you go: https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/02/16/british-man-marooned-in-canada-because-of-us-no-fly-list/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/02/16/british-man-marooned-... https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/03/18/canadian-denied-passage-home-from-germany-because-of-us-no-fly-list/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/03/18/canadian-denied-passa... https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/05/25/us-intervenes-to-block-uk-to-canada-trip-by-ex-gitmo-prisoner/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/05/25/us-intervenes-to-bloc... None of these people were scheduled to fly to, from, or via the USA. There have also been people denied passage on fligths between other countries, merely becuase they were scheduled to pass through US airspace without landing. But that's a different issue from the incidents reported in the links above: https://papersplease.org/wp/2009/05/16/air-france-passenger-data-and-no-fly-orders/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2009/05/16/air-france-passenger-... https://papersplease.org/wp/2010/06/07/another-paris-mexico-flight-barred-from-us-airspace/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2010/06/07/another-paris-mexico-... https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/07/25/mexico-barcelona-flight-barred-from-overflying-the-us/ https://papersplease.org/wp/2011/07/25/mexico-barcelona-flig...