4 ms·

Would be great if he had expanded on the 'no career path' section - that will probably be something that most people want to know about - surely there must be d

by smiler 16y ago

Would be great if he had expanded on the 'no career path' section - that will probably be something that most people want to know about - surely there must be different levels of developers to some extent? Moving from development to management? Any Apple employees on here like to comment?

gaius 16y ago
Any Apple employees on here like to comment? Probably not ;-)
- deleted 16y ago
  [deleted]
- FalcorTheDog 16y ago
  You'd be surprised ;-)
nostromo 16y ago
The way he mentions that Apple HR confirms that there are 'no career paths' at Apple makes me think he's referring to a more regimented promotion system (a la GE).
- jonnathanson 16y ago
  This is probably what he means. It's the case at a lot of companies, and particularly tech companies. There's probably no set rulebook along the lines of "You will spend X years in Y position in Z department, then you will be promoted to Y+1, where you will spend another X years until Y+2," etc. That kind of structured progression seems to be going away in a lot of industries, with the notable exceptions being the big client-facing industries (consulting, banking, law, and so forth).
  - gamble 16y ago
    If you look at company reviews on glassdoor.com, you'll notice that people either complain that their company has too many layers of management, or that there are no opportunities for advancement. I've never heard anyone claim that Apple is overly bureaucratic.
    - jrockway 16y ago
      People have tried to make that claim, but Apple's Reality Distortion Field picked it up and the guilty parties were taken out back and shot. Remember that 1984 video? Yeah.
- kunjaan 16y ago
  Could you elaborate more on the system?
- j_baker 16y ago
  Either that or a Google-style flat hierarchy. There may simply not be that many manager positions to get promoted into.
jfb 16y ago
Almost certainly he's referring to a formal career plan, of which I saw none at Apple. On the other hand, I know many engineers who have made director -- but only by switching gears to management. If you want to stay an individual contributor, you can, but "moving up" at Apple is largely confined to management. There are a handful of DESTs, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.
- jon_hendry 16y ago
  How does that effect compensation? Do people plateau in compensation because of the lack of formal levels, or is compensation not tied so tightly to your title/# of reports/etc.
  - jfb 16y ago
    I don't know; they keep that data pretty close to their chest. You wouldn't get up into the eye-watering RSU/option grant territory until you made director, but the engineers (and team leads, &c.) are well compensated. The stock going berserk has changed the equation, of course. EDIT: Oh, how about I answer the question? Compensation is highly discretionary, so it varies pretty widely. But the real cheese is in equity grants, and those are heavily weighted towards management. A common complaint is that there's no realistic path up out of being an "individual contributor".
apike 16y ago
Lack of a career path is part of why I left Apple to start my own company. The hierarchy is quite flat, and the departments are quite compartmentalized. Because of this, if you want to move up, you're probably quitting and applying to a new job that also happens to be at Apple. Of course, it was a wonderful place to work in a lot of other ways.
- applerecruit 16y ago
  Apple is trying to hire me to do server side stuff. It's a job that I'm pretty good at, but I'm not very excited about anymore. My thinking was that I could transfer into another group after a year, and it would be easier once I'm "in the system." Given your statement, is it a better idea to just wait until I'm good enough at the stuff I want to do, before applying?
  - apike 16y ago
    If you're not excited about something, don't do it - even at Apple.
    - philwelch 16y ago
      Unless you're broke.
- jfb 16y ago
  Loads of people leave and come back, too. I knew several.
  - jlhamilton 16y ago
    I heard about a guy who did this named Steve.
    - jfb 16y ago
      Employee 0 (apocryphal).
  - 16y ago

by smiler 16y ago

gaius 16y ago

Any Apple employees on here like to comment? Probably not ;-)

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
FalcorTheDog 16y ago
You'd be surprised ;-)

nostromo 16y ago

The way he mentions that Apple HR confirms that there are 'no career paths' at Apple makes me think he's referring to a more regimented promotion system (a la GE).

jonnathanson 16y ago
This is probably what he means. It's the case at a lot of companies, and particularly tech companies. There's probably no set rulebook along the lines of "You will spend X years in Y position in Z department, then you will be promoted to Y+1, where you will spend another X years until Y+2," etc. That kind of structured progression seems to be going away in a lot of industries, with the notable exceptions being the big client-facing industries (consulting, banking, law, and so forth).
- gamble 16y ago
  If you look at company reviews on glassdoor.com, you'll notice that people either complain that their company has too many layers of management, or that there are no opportunities for advancement. I've never heard anyone claim that Apple is overly bureaucratic.
  - jrockway 16y ago
    People have tried to make that claim, but Apple's Reality Distortion Field picked it up and the guilty parties were taken out back and shot. Remember that 1984 video? Yeah.
kunjaan 16y ago
Could you elaborate more on the system?
j_baker 16y ago
Either that or a Google-style flat hierarchy. There may simply not be that many manager positions to get promoted into.

jfb 16y ago

Almost certainly he's referring to a formal career plan, of which I saw none at Apple. On the other hand, I know many engineers who have made director -- but only by switching gears to management. If you want to stay an individual contributor, you can, but "moving up" at Apple is largely confined to management. There are a handful of DESTs, but they are the exception, rather than the rule.

jon_hendry 16y ago
How does that effect compensation? Do people plateau in compensation because of the lack of formal levels, or is compensation not tied so tightly to your title/# of reports/etc.
- jfb 16y ago
  I don't know; they keep that data pretty close to their chest. You wouldn't get up into the eye-watering RSU/option grant territory until you made director, but the engineers (and team leads, &c.) are well compensated. The stock going berserk has changed the equation, of course. EDIT: Oh, how about I answer the question? Compensation is highly discretionary, so it varies pretty widely. But the real cheese is in equity grants, and those are heavily weighted towards management. A common complaint is that there's no realistic path up out of being an "individual contributor".

apike 16y ago

Lack of a career path is part of why I left Apple to start my own company. The hierarchy is quite flat, and the departments are quite compartmentalized. Because of this, if you want to move up, you're probably quitting and applying to a new job that also happens to be at Apple. Of course, it was a wonderful place to work in a lot of other ways.

applerecruit 16y ago
Apple is trying to hire me to do server side stuff. It's a job that I'm pretty good at, but I'm not very excited about anymore. My thinking was that I could transfer into another group after a year, and it would be easier once I'm "in the system." Given your statement, is it a better idea to just wait until I'm good enough at the stuff I want to do, before applying?
- apike 16y ago
  If you're not excited about something, don't do it - even at Apple.
  - philwelch 16y ago
    Unless you're broke.
jfb 16y ago
Loads of people leave and come back, too. I knew several.
- jlhamilton 16y ago
  I heard about a guy who did this named Steve.
  - jfb 16y ago
    Employee 0 (apocryphal).
- 16y ago