7 ms·

I cannot conceive of any future where the eventual upshot of all of this isn't...a Surface Pro. The thing is, there is nowhere left for Apple to go. What else

by exergy 8y ago

I cannot conceive of any future where the eventual upshot of all of this isn't...a Surface Pro. The thing is, there is nowhere left for Apple to go. What else can they do with iOS? They will be forced to make iOS more powerful and that MUST include things like proper file management, multiple windows, displays, mouse support etc...aka a Surface Pro. Perhaps a more pleasing-to-look-at iteration than Windows 10, and better quality native apps, but a Surface Pro nevertheless.

coldtea 8y ago
>I cannot conceive of any future where the eventual upshot of all of this isn't...a Surface Pro. Well, Ford's customers couldn't conceive of a future where the eventual upshot wouldn't be ...faster horses either. >The thing is, there is nowhere left for Apple to go Because we have exhausted UI paradigms and interaction design? >and that MUST include things like proper file management, multiple windows, displays, mouse support etc...aka a Surface Pro. The "aka a Surface Pro" is where you're wrong though. All of what you ask for can be answered by "just buy a Mac laptop" today. There's absolutely no reason for anyone to want an iPad that does all that -- except to get a laptop with touchscreen hybrid. But those are not exactly some wide success in the PC world either. The iPad serves a need without desktop-features. And it sells 10s of millions of units (10x or more than the Surface) every year without these features. The ability to get a desktop OS-X experience is not why iPads are bought. Here's how it can play out: E.g.: - "Proper file management" can be abstracted totally from storage as far as the apps are concerned, like iOS already does, and have powerful metadata properties and searchability (the way Microsoft tried and failed with their WinFS project). So not like Surface of today, or regular Finder-like file management. - Multiple windows can be non-overlapping, and develop into a tiling/snapping mechanism. OSes have already disfavored the once dominant MDI windows (and even third party apps have, e.g. Photoshop of yore with Photoshop of today). This can be a next step. - displays, the iPad Pro already supports external displays. - mouse support, this can or cannot be added, but if the table factor has to have any meaning it has to be secondary to the touch experience (so apps should be prepared to work in 100% touch mode). More importantly, the main premise of the iPad is the hassle free device management. Apps are all sandboxed, the OS is dead simple to configure, zero viruses, everything backed to the cloud, etc. Those are the avenues that will be enhanced and expanded, not how to run IDEs. It's not 'full customizability and power to run any niche pro app', it's 'it just works'. Pro apps will came (and in several sectors have come), but only by respecting the "it just works" part.
- exergy 8y ago
  > Well, Ford's customers couldn't conceive of a future where the eventual upshot wouldn't be ...faster horses either. I don't agree that these are valid comparisons. An iPad is a computer. It has a CPU, and a screen, and an OS, and is therefore rather similar to a PC, barring UI lipstick. A car and a horse are way different. If you are suggesting that there may be a next-big-thing invented that supplants PCs AND iPads entirely (neural interface thingy), then maybe we are in agreement. An iPad is most definitely NOT to a PC what the automobile was to the horse buggy. > Because we have exhausted UI paradigms and interaction design? You wouldn't agree with this? In the context of computers (once again, neural stuff/VR notwithstanding) I have yet to see an interface to a computer faster than the keyboard and mouse. And I think 'faster' is a good metric for 'better'. Touch, in that regard, is woefully off the mark. Clicking a menu item, or even better, knowing the keyboard shortcut, is the most superior method of getting shit done. Touch is fine for convenience, but convenience is a rather limiting goal. If the goal is to extract every last ounce of usefulness out of our devices (paired with a desire to own as few devices as posible), a mere touchscreen isn't enough.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >I don't agree that these are valid comparisons. An iPad is a computer. It has a CPU, and a screen, and an OS, and is therefore rather similar to a PC, barring UI lipstick. That would entail that anything with "a CPU, and a screen, and an OS" should offer the exact same experience as a desktop/laptop computer. (Not to mention that ATM machines, kiosks, and cars also have one or more cpus, screens, and OSes). The whole idea of the iPad as Apple (and I) see it, is that something with a "CPU, an OS, and a screen" can have widely different interaction design, and that the "PC" experience is far from the optimal for all uses. For those other users, the iPad experience (or some other) can be greater. And those that really need a PC, can always just ...get a PC! (That's also how the smartphone, which also has a CPU, a screen, and an OS) surpassed the PC in time spent/internet use) with a different interaction design. >You wouldn't agree with this? In the context of computers (once again, neural stuff/VR notwithstanding) I have yet to see an interface to a computer faster than the keyboard and mouse. Faster at what? When using visual apps like Procreate or Photoshop for example, I find that touch is faster than "keyboard and mouse". For reading (Kindle, iBooks, etc) touch is faster than keyboard and mouse. For certain music apps, touch is faster than keyboard and mouse (most of the work is manipulating filter and automation envelopes and rectangles on a grid). The main things keyboards are faster are writing and programming.
andybak 8y ago
Does a Surface Pro handle sleep/hibernate properly? The biggest factor that still makes me prefer MacOS to Windows is the fact I can just shut the damn lid and come back a day latter to find my battery is intact and I haven't fried any components. (And on the other side - I'd love a Macbook with a proper GPU for a reasonable price. Like about $3000 for something with a 1080 in please.)
- exergy 8y ago
  Of course! Why would you think it wouldn't? Installing Linux on the Surface Pro is a different matter, and then Suspend just does not work. But with Windows it works pretty well.
  - andybak 8y ago
    > Why would you think it wouldn't? Well - My newish Windows 10 laptop fails at this basic task.
  - coldtea 8y ago
    >Of course! Why would you think it wouldn't? Considering that the other comment directly above you says: "It took a long time for the bugs to get worked out, but I have not had any sleep/wake issues on my Surface Pro 4 in awhile now. At least since the 1809 update." There are many reasons to think it wouldn't.
- pxeboot 8y ago
  It took a long time for the bugs to get worked out, but I have not had any sleep/wake issues on my Surface Pro 4 in awhile now. At least since the 1809 update.
davemp 8y ago
> They will be forced to make iOS more powerful and that MUST include things like proper file management, multiple windows, displays, mouse support etc...aka a Surface Pro. Apple has been working to get iOS apps running on macOS with marzipan. So I’d guess they’ll just use macOS for the iPad.
- whywhywhywhy 8y ago
  To me Marzipan feels more like they want to give pro app developers less excuses to not make iPad versions of their apps. iPad has way more need for pro apps than OSX does for iPad apps.
  - gurkendoktor 8y ago
    What if Marzipan was never about pro apps, or convergence of operating systems, or any of that? I think the Apple community is overthinking it because everyone is focussing on whether iPads are the workstations of tomorrow. Right now many small "utility" apps for iOS don't have a macOS version. With Marzipan they might add one, which will make it easier to sell Macs to iPhone users. "See! Your Twitter apps and To Do lists are right there waiting for you!" It just needs to be good enough to work as a gateway drug.
egypturnash 8y ago
The Surface Pro is a pretty nice device. I came close to shifting from a Mac to one as my on-the-go device; if not for endless hassles getting its stylus to work smoothly with Adobe Illustrator (my main art tool) I would have. If Apple came out with something in that form factor I’d be all over it. Would that be so bad?
pfranz 8y ago
I was pretty disappointed that all mouse/keyboard desktop UIs stopped evolving in the early 2000s--especially as they all transitioned to hardware-accelerated desktops. I stuck with macOS because the laptop hardware was a lot more solid, I like Unix terminal, sleep/wake and battery life was way better, and a few other more minor things, but as for basic productivity of the UI; all three platforms are basically the same. I think there's still a lot of potential in alternative desktop interfaces, but that ship has sailed long ago. Tiling window managers have found a niche. I really like the idea of the Hotbox from Maya (3d software), but the only other place I've seen it used is Autodesk's Sketchbook. I'm very glad Apple is trying to come up with something else, even if they settle back on traditional desktop interactions. However, I think they're too big and entrenched to be too adventurous.
GeekyBear 8y ago
The Surface Pro has never been designed from the ground up with touch as the primary interaction method. It's always been a laptop with some touch interaction bolted on. Therein lies the difference. Apple has chosen to surface more complexity (designing a version of drag and drop for touch), but they haven't stopped making touch the primary interaction method. Nor should they.
- pxeboot 8y ago
  Microsoft tried to make touch a priority with Windows 8 and it was a complete failure. The Surface is great, as a laptop, but not very useful without a keyboard.

by exergy 8y ago

coldtea 8y ago

>I cannot conceive of any future where the eventual upshot of all of this isn't...a Surface Pro. Well, Ford's customers couldn't conceive of a future where the eventual upshot wouldn't be ...faster horses either. >The thing is, there is nowhere left for Apple to go Because we have exhausted UI paradigms and interaction design? >and that MUST include things like proper file management, multiple windows, displays, mouse support etc...aka a Surface Pro. The "aka a Surface Pro" is where you're wrong though. All of what you ask for can be answered by "just buy a Mac laptop" today. There's absolutely no reason for anyone to want an iPad that does all that -- except to get a laptop with touchscreen hybrid. But those are not exactly some wide success in the PC world either. The iPad serves a need without desktop-features. And it sells 10s of millions of units (10x or more than the Surface) every year without these features. The ability to get a desktop OS-X experience is not why iPads are bought. Here's how it can play out: E.g.: - "Proper file management" can be abstracted totally from storage as far as the apps are concerned, like iOS already does, and have powerful metadata properties and searchability (the way Microsoft tried and failed with their WinFS project). So not like Surface of today, or regular Finder-like file management. - Multiple windows can be non-overlapping, and develop into a tiling/snapping mechanism. OSes have already disfavored the once dominant MDI windows (and even third party apps have, e.g. Photoshop of yore with Photoshop of today). This can be a next step. - displays, the iPad Pro already supports external displays. - mouse support, this can or cannot be added, but if the table factor has to have any meaning it has to be secondary to the touch experience (so apps should be prepared to work in 100% touch mode). More importantly, the main premise of the iPad is the hassle free device management. Apps are all sandboxed, the OS is dead simple to configure, zero viruses, everything backed to the cloud, etc. Those are the avenues that will be enhanced and expanded, not how to run IDEs. It's not 'full customizability and power to run any niche pro app', it's 'it just works'. Pro apps will came (and in several sectors have come), but only by respecting the "it just works" part.

exergy 8y ago
> Well, Ford's customers couldn't conceive of a future where the eventual upshot wouldn't be ...faster horses either. I don't agree that these are valid comparisons. An iPad is a computer. It has a CPU, and a screen, and an OS, and is therefore rather similar to a PC, barring UI lipstick. A car and a horse are way different. If you are suggesting that there may be a next-big-thing invented that supplants PCs AND iPads entirely (neural interface thingy), then maybe we are in agreement. An iPad is most definitely NOT to a PC what the automobile was to the horse buggy. > Because we have exhausted UI paradigms and interaction design? You wouldn't agree with this? In the context of computers (once again, neural stuff/VR notwithstanding) I have yet to see an interface to a computer faster than the keyboard and mouse. And I think 'faster' is a good metric for 'better'. Touch, in that regard, is woefully off the mark. Clicking a menu item, or even better, knowing the keyboard shortcut, is the most superior method of getting shit done. Touch is fine for convenience, but convenience is a rather limiting goal. If the goal is to extract every last ounce of usefulness out of our devices (paired with a desire to own as few devices as posible), a mere touchscreen isn't enough.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >I don't agree that these are valid comparisons. An iPad is a computer. It has a CPU, and a screen, and an OS, and is therefore rather similar to a PC, barring UI lipstick. That would entail that anything with "a CPU, and a screen, and an OS" should offer the exact same experience as a desktop/laptop computer. (Not to mention that ATM machines, kiosks, and cars also have one or more cpus, screens, and OSes). The whole idea of the iPad as Apple (and I) see it, is that something with a "CPU, an OS, and a screen" can have widely different interaction design, and that the "PC" experience is far from the optimal for all uses. For those other users, the iPad experience (or some other) can be greater. And those that really need a PC, can always just ...get a PC! (That's also how the smartphone, which also has a CPU, a screen, and an OS) surpassed the PC in time spent/internet use) with a different interaction design. >You wouldn't agree with this? In the context of computers (once again, neural stuff/VR notwithstanding) I have yet to see an interface to a computer faster than the keyboard and mouse. Faster at what? When using visual apps like Procreate or Photoshop for example, I find that touch is faster than "keyboard and mouse". For reading (Kindle, iBooks, etc) touch is faster than keyboard and mouse. For certain music apps, touch is faster than keyboard and mouse (most of the work is manipulating filter and automation envelopes and rectangles on a grid). The main things keyboards are faster are writing and programming.

andybak 8y ago

Does a Surface Pro handle sleep/hibernate properly? The biggest factor that still makes me prefer MacOS to Windows is the fact I can just shut the damn lid and come back a day latter to find my battery is intact and I haven't fried any components. (And on the other side - I'd love a Macbook with a proper GPU for a reasonable price. Like about $3000 for something with a 1080 in please.)

exergy 8y ago
Of course! Why would you think it wouldn't? Installing Linux on the Surface Pro is a different matter, and then Suspend just does not work. But with Windows it works pretty well.
- andybak 8y ago
  > Why would you think it wouldn't? Well - My newish Windows 10 laptop fails at this basic task.
- coldtea 8y ago
  >Of course! Why would you think it wouldn't? Considering that the other comment directly above you says: "It took a long time for the bugs to get worked out, but I have not had any sleep/wake issues on my Surface Pro 4 in awhile now. At least since the 1809 update." There are many reasons to think it wouldn't.
pxeboot 8y ago
It took a long time for the bugs to get worked out, but I have not had any sleep/wake issues on my Surface Pro 4 in awhile now. At least since the 1809 update.

davemp 8y ago

> They will be forced to make iOS more powerful and that MUST include things like proper file management, multiple windows, displays, mouse support etc...aka a Surface Pro. Apple has been working to get iOS apps running on macOS with marzipan. So I’d guess they’ll just use macOS for the iPad.

whywhywhywhy 8y ago
To me Marzipan feels more like they want to give pro app developers less excuses to not make iPad versions of their apps. iPad has way more need for pro apps than OSX does for iPad apps.
- gurkendoktor 8y ago
  What if Marzipan was never about pro apps, or convergence of operating systems, or any of that? I think the Apple community is overthinking it because everyone is focussing on whether iPads are the workstations of tomorrow. Right now many small "utility" apps for iOS don't have a macOS version. With Marzipan they might add one, which will make it easier to sell Macs to iPhone users. "See! Your Twitter apps and To Do lists are right there waiting for you!" It just needs to be good enough to work as a gateway drug.

egypturnash 8y ago

The Surface Pro is a pretty nice device. I came close to shifting from a Mac to one as my on-the-go device; if not for endless hassles getting its stylus to work smoothly with Adobe Illustrator (my main art tool) I would have. If Apple came out with something in that form factor I’d be all over it. Would that be so bad?

pfranz 8y ago

I was pretty disappointed that all mouse/keyboard desktop UIs stopped evolving in the early 2000s--especially as they all transitioned to hardware-accelerated desktops. I stuck with macOS because the laptop hardware was a lot more solid, I like Unix terminal, sleep/wake and battery life was way better, and a few other more minor things, but as for basic productivity of the UI; all three platforms are basically the same. I think there's still a lot of potential in alternative desktop interfaces, but that ship has sailed long ago. Tiling window managers have found a niche. I really like the idea of the Hotbox from Maya (3d software), but the only other place I've seen it used is Autodesk's Sketchbook. I'm very glad Apple is trying to come up with something else, even if they settle back on traditional desktop interactions. However, I think they're too big and entrenched to be too adventurous.

GeekyBear 8y ago

The Surface Pro has never been designed from the ground up with touch as the primary interaction method. It's always been a laptop with some touch interaction bolted on. Therein lies the difference. Apple has chosen to surface more complexity (designing a version of drag and drop for touch), but they haven't stopped making touch the primary interaction method. Nor should they.

pxeboot 8y ago
Microsoft tried to make touch a priority with Windows 8 and it was a complete failure. The Surface is great, as a laptop, but not very useful without a keyboard.