5 ms·

i thought LIDAR has high cost barrier to be in consumer vehicles.

ttul 8y ago
It does, but the cost is coming down quickly as a result of innovation.
Alupis 8y ago
> i thought LIDAR has high cost barrier to be in consumer vehicles. Ok, so you save a few bucks, kill a few people... then eventually come to the same conclusion every other Autonomous Driving company already has... you need LIDAR for this work reliably?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]
- gpm 8y ago
  Or, you know, you get it working without LIDAR and make boatloads of money. Humans don't rely on any sort of LIDAR to drive, I don't see how you could be so certain that computers need to.
  - trhway 8y ago
    >Humans don't rely on any sort of LIDAR to drive, I don't see how you could be so certain that computers need to. 1. using that logic we would still be trying to build airplanes with flapping wings like birds. 2. humans aren't that good of a drivers.
    - shaklee3 8y ago
      Humans are GREAT drivers compared to anything else out there. Especially self-driving cars.
  - andrewmunsell 8y ago
    Humans don't need LIDAR, but we rely on the massive amount of compute power available to us in our brains and a variety of other sensory inputs that go beyond simple vision. Of course, we're easily distracted, which is one reason why we aren't perfect drivers. I really believe you can make a vision+radar only self driving car, but not without a lot of compute power. LIDAR just makes it easier. Will HW3 be enough? Probably for a lot of scenarios, but it's definitely not going to be level 4/5 anytime soon.
  - Alupis 8y ago
    > I don't see how you could be so certain that computers need to We're nowhere close to emulating what goes on in a human brain... neural networks are an absurdly simplified approximation of simple life-forms... it took the K supercomputer (having 705,024 cores and 1.4 Petabytes of RAM) 40 minutes to emulate 1 second of 1 percent of human brain activity.[1] Since we cannot come close to sensory input processing a human can do... we need to augment our systems with better sensors. LIDAR is a better sensor, and can help "see" things that would otherwise go missed. > you get it working without LIDAR and make boatloads of money And why can't you make "boatloads of money" while using LIDAR? Killing people is bad for business... no? Before you jump on it, no LIDAR is no silver bullet... but it's available technology that can help quite a bit. Why not use it? Unless you've overpromised what your price point will be for technology that is yet to exist? [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10567942/Supercomputer-models-one-second-of-human-brain-activity.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10567942/Supercompute...
    - darkpuma 8y ago
      > "Before you jump on it, no LIDAR is no silver bullet... but it's available technology that can help quite a bit. Why not use it?" Because Elon wanted to advertise his cars as having all the hardware necessary, because the automotive automation hype is very real. He wanted to sell luxury cars to tech enthused idealists, but he didn't want to cut down on his profit margins by actually delivering what he was selling. The fact that he always admitted the software was lacking gave him plenty of cover. It allows his customers to continue to believe, even though their car can't actually drive itself. That's the beauty of selling hopes and dreams instead of anything concrete.
- erbium 8y ago
  And every other "Autonomous Driving" company has zero real revenue.
kitsunesoba 8y ago
On top that, most LIDAR units I’ve seen have been quite bulky which would make designing a sexy looking vehicle around it near impossible. One of Tesla’s goals and main selling points is making “normal” looking cars instead of space bugs and in its present state, LIDAR integration would go against that.
- milesokeefe 8y ago
  Solid state LIDAR is a solution to that. Much cheaper too.
- darkpuma 8y ago
  Putting form before function is almost never a good idea. If they actually got ugly Level 5 automation to work, it would sell. Period. And it would sell well enough to likely change public perception of what looks good and what looks ugly. Changes in technology causing changes in fashion is well documented.
Rebelgecko 8y ago
They are a bit expensive but prices have decreased rapidly over the last few years. You can get a good LIDAR for less than Tesla charges for their Autopilot. You can get consumer level ones that go out to 18 meters for around $100.
- ex3ndr 8y ago
  Please, show LIDAR that can create decent realtime 3D map of the environments for "around $100".
  - Rebelgecko 8y ago
    I don't know of any. But for some cases that Teslas seem to have trouble handling, like plowing into stopped white vehicles or concrete dividers[1], I think a 2D LIDAR like this one[2] would still be useful enough to have saved lives. [1]: a la https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02H2xGIecc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02H2xGIecc [2]: https://www.adafruit.com/product/4010 https://www.adafruit.com/product/4010
syntaxing 8y ago
That's more or less why it's a pretty heated race to get a reliable solid state LIDAR. I think within a couple years we will have sub $2500 LIDAR units.
remir 8y ago
I wonder if solid state LiDAR would be cheaper?
kappi 8y ago
There are many startups coming up with solidstate lidars that will be commercialized in the next two years. Teslas of today without lidars during that time will have big disadvantage compared to the competition. I am assuming Tesla will also release one with Lidar in 2020 though Elon Musk publicly say it is not needed. Like Steve Jobs he will change his statement when Tesla releases one with lidar.

ttul 8y ago

It does, but the cost is coming down quickly as a result of innovation.

> i thought LIDAR has high cost barrier to be in consumer vehicles. Ok, so you save a few bucks, kill a few people... then eventually come to the same conclusion every other Autonomous Driving company already has... you need LIDAR for this work reliably?

deleted 8y ago
[deleted]
gpm 8y ago
Or, you know, you get it working without LIDAR and make boatloads of money. Humans don't rely on any sort of LIDAR to drive, I don't see how you could be so certain that computers need to.
- trhway 8y ago
  >Humans don't rely on any sort of LIDAR to drive, I don't see how you could be so certain that computers need to. 1. using that logic we would still be trying to build airplanes with flapping wings like birds. 2. humans aren't that good of a drivers.
  - shaklee3 8y ago
    Humans are GREAT drivers compared to anything else out there. Especially self-driving cars.
- andrewmunsell 8y ago
  Humans don't need LIDAR, but we rely on the massive amount of compute power available to us in our brains and a variety of other sensory inputs that go beyond simple vision. Of course, we're easily distracted, which is one reason why we aren't perfect drivers. I really believe you can make a vision+radar only self driving car, but not without a lot of compute power. LIDAR just makes it easier. Will HW3 be enough? Probably for a lot of scenarios, but it's definitely not going to be level 4/5 anytime soon.
- Alupis 8y ago
  > I don't see how you could be so certain that computers need to We're nowhere close to emulating what goes on in a human brain... neural networks are an absurdly simplified approximation of simple life-forms... it took the K supercomputer (having 705,024 cores and 1.4 Petabytes of RAM) 40 minutes to emulate 1 second of 1 percent of human brain activity.[1] Since we cannot come close to sensory input processing a human can do... we need to augment our systems with better sensors. LIDAR is a better sensor, and can help "see" things that would otherwise go missed. > you get it working without LIDAR and make boatloads of money And why can't you make "boatloads of money" while using LIDAR? Killing people is bad for business... no? Before you jump on it, no LIDAR is no silver bullet... but it's available technology that can help quite a bit. Why not use it? Unless you've overpromised what your price point will be for technology that is yet to exist? [1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10567942/Supercomputer-models-one-second-of-human-brain-activity.html https://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10567942/Supercompute...
  - darkpuma 8y ago
    > "Before you jump on it, no LIDAR is no silver bullet... but it's available technology that can help quite a bit. Why not use it?" Because Elon wanted to advertise his cars as having all the hardware necessary, because the automotive automation hype is very real. He wanted to sell luxury cars to tech enthused idealists, but he didn't want to cut down on his profit margins by actually delivering what he was selling. The fact that he always admitted the software was lacking gave him plenty of cover. It allows his customers to continue to believe, even though their car can't actually drive itself. That's the beauty of selling hopes and dreams instead of anything concrete.
erbium 8y ago
And every other "Autonomous Driving" company has zero real revenue.

kitsunesoba 8y ago

On top that, most LIDAR units I’ve seen have been quite bulky which would make designing a sexy looking vehicle around it near impossible. One of Tesla’s goals and main selling points is making “normal” looking cars instead of space bugs and in its present state, LIDAR integration would go against that.

milesokeefe 8y ago
Solid state LIDAR is a solution to that. Much cheaper too.
darkpuma 8y ago
Putting form before function is almost never a good idea. If they actually got ugly Level 5 automation to work, it would sell. Period. And it would sell well enough to likely change public perception of what looks good and what looks ugly. Changes in technology causing changes in fashion is well documented.

Rebelgecko 8y ago

They are a bit expensive but prices have decreased rapidly over the last few years. You can get a good LIDAR for less than Tesla charges for their Autopilot. You can get consumer level ones that go out to 18 meters for around $100.

ex3ndr 8y ago
Please, show LIDAR that can create decent realtime 3D map of the environments for "around $100".
- Rebelgecko 8y ago
  I don't know of any. But for some cases that Teslas seem to have trouble handling, like plowing into stopped white vehicles or concrete dividers[1], I think a 2D LIDAR like this one[2] would still be useful enough to have saved lives. [1]: a la https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QCF8tVqM3I or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02H2xGIecc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o02H2xGIecc [2]: https://www.adafruit.com/product/4010 https://www.adafruit.com/product/4010

syntaxing 8y ago

That's more or less why it's a pretty heated race to get a reliable solid state LIDAR. I think within a couple years we will have sub $2500 LIDAR units.

remir 8y ago

I wonder if solid state LiDAR would be cheaper?

kappi 8y ago

There are many startups coming up with solidstate lidars that will be commercialized in the next two years. Teslas of today without lidars during that time will have big disadvantage compared to the competition. I am assuming Tesla will also release one with Lidar in 2020 though Elon Musk publicly say it is not needed. Like Steve Jobs he will change his statement when Tesla releases one with lidar.