5 ms·

The article mentions childcare, and I can definitely attest that it is a factor in people's family size decisions, along with the push for two working parents.

The article mentions childcare, and I can definitely attest that it is a factor in people's family size decisions, along with the push for two working parents. We are privileged enough that we can survive on one income, however, were that not the case we'd be looking at paying $12/k a year for each child in childcare, on top of other baby-rearing costs. As it is, my wife plans to drop to (extreme) part time once we hit baby #2 ... at that point we'll still suffer some loss, but at baby #3 it will be a wash. And why such a childcare shortage? The government, of course. In a time of extreme demand, shortage, and rapidly rising rates, the availability of childcare is still decreasing. I asked about this, and our local center has to report to & be inspected by three separate government agencies. Their compliance costs are enormous. They're as much a paperwork collection, processing, and reporting center as they are a childcare center. With the advent of nanny cams, I can watch my child any time I choose, and record the action whenever I wish. Makes me wonder if the regulation needs to be quite so heavy in the modern age. On a separate but related note: the impact of low birthrates and long life expediencies is unavoidable. Either: 1) People need to work longer, or 2) Retired people need to have a lesser lifestyle (so that the working population can live approximately the same lifestyle that current retirees had while they were working), or 3) Working people need to have a lesser lifestyle compared to past generations (to free up resources for retirees) It seems that we are slow-walking towards 3), which is a problem because it'll to some extent push the working population into a death spiral. They have less, so they work more, so they have less children, and the problem worsens. Repeat.

freehunter 8y ago
At the risk of getting political, those regulations around child care providers were put in place due to rampant child abuse by care providers. No one just sat down one day and said "you know what we need, some overbearing regulations for no reason". Children were dying at the hands of their care givers. The regulations only seem unnecessary because they're working. Now that children aren't being beaten to death by their care givers quite as often, people now have the luxury of asking why there are so many regulations. Cameras have blind spots, can be turned off, and if you really want to monitor them, as a parent you have to be able to watch the camera all day to ensure nothing bad is happening while your back is turned. Hardly an ideal situation for a working parent.
- testvox 8y ago
  How do you explain then that many states have almost no regulations on small child care operations while others have extremely harsh and specific ones?
  - chrisseaton 8y ago
    Past experience in those states, perhaps? Scandals reported in the media within the state but not nationally that meant the state electorate demanded regulation?
  - deleted 8y ago
    [deleted]
chrisseaton 8y ago
> We are privileged enough that we can survive on one income, however, were that not the case we'd be looking at paying $12/k a year for each child in childcare, on top of other baby-rearing costs. This seems like a bit of a puzzle here. Staying home means you lose one income. But going to work costs you almost that entire income if you have a couple of children for childcare costs, and on top of that you also never see your children. So why not stay home? Same money plus better life for all three of you. Is it so you can stay in the industry and in the future when they go to school you have kept your high paying job?
- purephase 8y ago
  It's not as straightforward. The stay-at-home-parent leaves the workforce which is good for the first pre-school years cost-wise, but getting back into the workforce after those "lost" years (bad term, as they're not lost -- there's true value in them to society, it's just not paid work) is inheritently difficult. Overall lifetime income is impacted by this decision. This is the substantive metric for the gender wage gap as that gap is measured in the overall lifetime income, not the per-wage of equivalent positions as it's inaccurately reported. Women generally leave the workforce to care for children, lose their prestige/position and when re-entering have to start at the beginning or lower position/wage and try to catch-up. Better childcare options would improve this immeasurably, or less stigma around both parents sharing the childcare time equitably would as well. In some countries this is the case, and it is having a measurable impact on childbirth rates.
  - CalRobert 8y ago
    This exactly. My wife and I have one child. For the first six months, the child was home with her (the typical maternity period in this country) For the second six months, she worked and the child was in daycare. It was a really good daycare, and the minder was damn near angelic. But it was also kind of horrible. Many nights I had put the child to bed before she was home from work. We wondered what the hell the point of having a kid you get to see on the weekends is. After paying for childcare, she had relatively little to show for her job. We were also a lot more likely to do expensive things like eat out, etc. due to exhaustion. Part time work was not an option for either of us. We eventually decided to have one parent stay home. It was her, because she made less money (perhaps because of a self-reinforcing bias that mothers are more likely to stay home, and thus are paid less?). Realistically speaking, it wasn't "I want to take a few years off work" but rather "I am throwing my _entire career_ in to the dumpster for this". Because in most fields that have decent jobs, you just _can't_ leave for 3-5 years and hop back in where you left off. It doesn't happen. Paradoxically, because she's home with the kid this makes us more likely to consider having a second, because childcare is a sunk cost. If there were inexpensive childcare and better part-time options we'd be more likely to stick with one. I suspect this explains why Nordic countries have low birth rates and high labour participation rates from mothers. That's not a bad thing though - ultimately the world should be working to get the fertility rate below 2 children per women, especially in the developed world. We fell in to the two-income trap in the 1970's and it's been getting worse ever since. Combined with the death of decent-paying blue collar jobs (though programming is quick becoming blue collar) it will result in similar decisions.
yters 8y ago
How does the rest of the world manage to have enormous families (by our standards) without childcare service and on a much smaller income?
- ohples 8y ago
  Not sure on what specific countries you referring to, but my guess would be mostly: 1. Having social norms or laws that force women to stay at home. 2. Having large economic inequality to make the cost of childcare services affordable to certain families.
  - cimmanom 8y ago
    1) Extended family and close friends care for children. If you have a friend or sister or cousin who's pregnant or just given birth, they keep an eye on your kids. Same goes for elders who no longer work outside the home. 2) Lower standards for supervision of children - as it was in the US in the 1970's, it's considered normal not to know where your 9-year-old is or what they're up to between breakfast and dinnertime. 3) Lower penalties for leaving the workforce for several years to take care of infants and toddlers - jobs that don't involve career progression or even necessarily what we'd consider formal employment (e.g. people working in their own fields or small market stalls).
- phil21 8y ago
  To put it simply and bluntly - those cultures remembered it takes a village to raise a child and have sane cultural expectations around children and child rearing. In the US the typical "middle class" child raising experience is utterly miserable. There is very little expectation in the rest of the world to end your life as you know it just because you had kids. Family, friends, even the community all sort of collectively engage in child rearing. In the US it's gone down this relentless road of sequestering oneself off from society whilst simultaneously being expected to devote your entire existence to child rearing or be seen as a bad person. This is a topic I've thought a lot on and have my ideas of what caused it, but it's really not for a place like HN :)
  - 8y ago
CalRobert 8y ago
I don't know which government you work under, but it's pretty simple math. * There are maximum child to minder ratios. Where I live it's 3:1 for kids under 1. * Minimum wage exists, though childminding really shouldn't be a minimum wage job. I want someone who knows CPR and first aid watching my kid. And who isn't looking for a better job all the time. Say you're open 8 AM to 6 PM. Minimum wage is $10 per hour. That's 10 hours * $10 = $100 per day. Or $33.33 per kid. Figure 21 workdays per month. That's ~$700 per month per kid. But of course, minders go on lunch breaks! And they take vacations! Tack on another 15% to cover for that and you're at $805. Those child minders want health insurance! How dare they! Tack on a few hundred per month per employee, or another ~$100 or so per kid. You're at $905. Oh, but the government demands taxes on what you pay the employee too! Well you're up to $1000+ per month, or the 12k you mention, So do you want to increase the child to minder ratio, cut benefits, or cut opening hours? Or, maybe you hire someone from a poor country as an au pair. They're abusing the hell out of their student visa and you're breaking employment law but it means you get cheap childcare. Of course, there are places where childcare has a low price to the consumer. It's generally where the government is footing the bill. Regarding your points 1,2,3, there is another option - we use improved technology to recognize that an improved lifestyle can be had for the same, or lower, cost. A basic, decent life can be pretty cheap these days. Except for housing, because the retirees voted to make it illegal to build new homes, and health care, which is too large a topic to cover here.
- danjayh 8y ago
  > So do you want to increase the child to minder ratio, cut benefits, or cut opening hours? All of the above, if the market will bear it (and I think in the case of reduced benefits, it will not - see my last paragraph). The point is that these decisions shouldn't be made by the government for the center and the parents who use it. Where I live the ratio is 4:1. Who's to say that 5:1 couldn't work, aside from the fact that the government doesn't allow it? What about something like 9:2, which would enable a single person to handle tasks that crop up (changing diapers, dealing with a fussy child, etc.) while the other handles the happy kids? what about 3 rooms at 6:1 with 2 floating caregivers who go where they're needed? Under a heavily regulated environment, none of these options can be explored. As far as benefits, as you said, I think at this point they are probably already getting above mandatory minimums, so regulation probably isn't having a huge effect there.
snarf21 8y ago
It is also because there just isn't enough money in the business. For infants, most states have a 4:1 ratio of babies to teachers. Most people pay $40 a day for this kind of care. Most centers have to cover 12 hours for that cost because people drop off their kids before and after a 9 hour work day. Just doing the math 4 * $40 is $160 and paying teachers a paltry $10 / hour leaves staffing costs at $120. That is not enough left to offer benefits to teachers and food for the kids and toys and cleaning and ... Generally you also have to run under capacity because so many people get sick as germs are passed around and you want to be able to run at full capacity when someone is out. Now you end up with normal operations running at 75%-90% which leaves almost no extra money.
mac01021 8y ago
> Their compliance costs are enormous. You are totally free to use an unlicensed daycare provider. They will be entirely unencumbered by regulations from the state, and you will have to assess the provider's quality and safety on your own.
- danjayh 8y ago
  Generally not. We prefer to have our child in a center, where there are more children, more support staff, and more teachers, and in our state such institutions are not allowed to operate without a license (the state will shut them down).
  - mac01021 8y ago
    You prefer them for their sheer size, rather than for the safety provided by the licensing process?

freehunter 8y ago

At the risk of getting political, those regulations around child care providers were put in place due to rampant child abuse by care providers. No one just sat down one day and said "you know what we need, some overbearing regulations for no reason". Children were dying at the hands of their care givers. The regulations only seem unnecessary because they're working. Now that children aren't being beaten to death by their care givers quite as often, people now have the luxury of asking why there are so many regulations. Cameras have blind spots, can be turned off, and if you really want to monitor them, as a parent you have to be able to watch the camera all day to ensure nothing bad is happening while your back is turned. Hardly an ideal situation for a working parent.

testvox 8y ago
How do you explain then that many states have almost no regulations on small child care operations while others have extremely harsh and specific ones?
- chrisseaton 8y ago
  Past experience in those states, perhaps? Scandals reported in the media within the state but not nationally that meant the state electorate demanded regulation?
- deleted 8y ago
  [deleted]

chrisseaton 8y ago

> We are privileged enough that we can survive on one income, however, were that not the case we'd be looking at paying $12/k a year for each child in childcare, on top of other baby-rearing costs. This seems like a bit of a puzzle here. Staying home means you lose one income. But going to work costs you almost that entire income if you have a couple of children for childcare costs, and on top of that you also never see your children. So why not stay home? Same money plus better life for all three of you. Is it so you can stay in the industry and in the future when they go to school you have kept your high paying job?

purephase 8y ago
It's not as straightforward. The stay-at-home-parent leaves the workforce which is good for the first pre-school years cost-wise, but getting back into the workforce after those "lost" years (bad term, as they're not lost -- there's true value in them to society, it's just not paid work) is inheritently difficult. Overall lifetime income is impacted by this decision. This is the substantive metric for the gender wage gap as that gap is measured in the overall lifetime income, not the per-wage of equivalent positions as it's inaccurately reported. Women generally leave the workforce to care for children, lose their prestige/position and when re-entering have to start at the beginning or lower position/wage and try to catch-up. Better childcare options would improve this immeasurably, or less stigma around both parents sharing the childcare time equitably would as well. In some countries this is the case, and it is having a measurable impact on childbirth rates.
- CalRobert 8y ago
  This exactly. My wife and I have one child. For the first six months, the child was home with her (the typical maternity period in this country) For the second six months, she worked and the child was in daycare. It was a really good daycare, and the minder was damn near angelic. But it was also kind of horrible. Many nights I had put the child to bed before she was home from work. We wondered what the hell the point of having a kid you get to see on the weekends is. After paying for childcare, she had relatively little to show for her job. We were also a lot more likely to do expensive things like eat out, etc. due to exhaustion. Part time work was not an option for either of us. We eventually decided to have one parent stay home. It was her, because she made less money (perhaps because of a self-reinforcing bias that mothers are more likely to stay home, and thus are paid less?). Realistically speaking, it wasn't "I want to take a few years off work" but rather "I am throwing my _entire career_ in to the dumpster for this". Because in most fields that have decent jobs, you just _can't_ leave for 3-5 years and hop back in where you left off. It doesn't happen. Paradoxically, because she's home with the kid this makes us more likely to consider having a second, because childcare is a sunk cost. If there were inexpensive childcare and better part-time options we'd be more likely to stick with one. I suspect this explains why Nordic countries have low birth rates and high labour participation rates from mothers. That's not a bad thing though - ultimately the world should be working to get the fertility rate below 2 children per women, especially in the developed world. We fell in to the two-income trap in the 1970's and it's been getting worse ever since. Combined with the death of decent-paying blue collar jobs (though programming is quick becoming blue collar) it will result in similar decisions.

yters 8y ago

How does the rest of the world manage to have enormous families (by our standards) without childcare service and on a much smaller income?

ohples 8y ago
Not sure on what specific countries you referring to, but my guess would be mostly: 1. Having social norms or laws that force women to stay at home. 2. Having large economic inequality to make the cost of childcare services affordable to certain families.
- cimmanom 8y ago
  1) Extended family and close friends care for children. If you have a friend or sister or cousin who's pregnant or just given birth, they keep an eye on your kids. Same goes for elders who no longer work outside the home. 2) Lower standards for supervision of children - as it was in the US in the 1970's, it's considered normal not to know where your 9-year-old is or what they're up to between breakfast and dinnertime. 3) Lower penalties for leaving the workforce for several years to take care of infants and toddlers - jobs that don't involve career progression or even necessarily what we'd consider formal employment (e.g. people working in their own fields or small market stalls).
phil21 8y ago
To put it simply and bluntly - those cultures remembered it takes a village to raise a child and have sane cultural expectations around children and child rearing. In the US the typical "middle class" child raising experience is utterly miserable. There is very little expectation in the rest of the world to end your life as you know it just because you had kids. Family, friends, even the community all sort of collectively engage in child rearing. In the US it's gone down this relentless road of sequestering oneself off from society whilst simultaneously being expected to devote your entire existence to child rearing or be seen as a bad person. This is a topic I've thought a lot on and have my ideas of what caused it, but it's really not for a place like HN :)
- 8y ago

CalRobert 8y ago

I don't know which government you work under, but it's pretty simple math. * There are maximum child to minder ratios. Where I live it's 3:1 for kids under 1. * Minimum wage exists, though childminding really shouldn't be a minimum wage job. I want someone who knows CPR and first aid watching my kid. And who isn't looking for a better job all the time. Say you're open 8 AM to 6 PM. Minimum wage is $10 per hour. That's 10 hours * $10 = $100 per day. Or $33.33 per kid. Figure 21 workdays per month. That's ~$700 per month per kid. But of course, minders go on lunch breaks! And they take vacations! Tack on another 15% to cover for that and you're at $805. Those child minders want health insurance! How dare they! Tack on a few hundred per month per employee, or another ~$100 or so per kid. You're at $905. Oh, but the government demands taxes on what you pay the employee too! Well you're up to $1000+ per month, or the 12k you mention, So do you want to increase the child to minder ratio, cut benefits, or cut opening hours? Or, maybe you hire someone from a poor country as an au pair. They're abusing the hell out of their student visa and you're breaking employment law but it means you get cheap childcare. Of course, there are places where childcare has a low price to the consumer. It's generally where the government is footing the bill. Regarding your points 1,2,3, there is another option - we use improved technology to recognize that an improved lifestyle can be had for the same, or lower, cost. A basic, decent life can be pretty cheap these days. Except for housing, because the retirees voted to make it illegal to build new homes, and health care, which is too large a topic to cover here.

danjayh 8y ago
> So do you want to increase the child to minder ratio, cut benefits, or cut opening hours? All of the above, if the market will bear it (and I think in the case of reduced benefits, it will not - see my last paragraph). The point is that these decisions shouldn't be made by the government for the center and the parents who use it. Where I live the ratio is 4:1. Who's to say that 5:1 couldn't work, aside from the fact that the government doesn't allow it? What about something like 9:2, which would enable a single person to handle tasks that crop up (changing diapers, dealing with a fussy child, etc.) while the other handles the happy kids? what about 3 rooms at 6:1 with 2 floating caregivers who go where they're needed? Under a heavily regulated environment, none of these options can be explored. As far as benefits, as you said, I think at this point they are probably already getting above mandatory minimums, so regulation probably isn't having a huge effect there.

snarf21 8y ago

It is also because there just isn't enough money in the business. For infants, most states have a 4:1 ratio of babies to teachers. Most people pay $40 a day for this kind of care. Most centers have to cover 12 hours for that cost because people drop off their kids before and after a 9 hour work day. Just doing the math 4 * $40 is $160 and paying teachers a paltry $10 / hour leaves staffing costs at $120. That is not enough left to offer benefits to teachers and food for the kids and toys and cleaning and ... Generally you also have to run under capacity because so many people get sick as germs are passed around and you want to be able to run at full capacity when someone is out. Now you end up with normal operations running at 75%-90% which leaves almost no extra money.

mac01021 8y ago

> Their compliance costs are enormous. You are totally free to use an unlicensed daycare provider. They will be entirely unencumbered by regulations from the state, and you will have to assess the provider's quality and safety on your own.

danjayh 8y ago
Generally not. We prefer to have our child in a center, where there are more children, more support staff, and more teachers, and in our state such institutions are not allowed to operate without a license (the state will shut them down).
- mac01021 8y ago
  You prefer them for their sheer size, rather than for the safety provided by the licensing process?