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"Fascism" has never won by arguing, though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to

"Fascism" has never won by arguing, though. It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence (i.e. beating people up, or worse) to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. That's not free speech, and it's not even something that our government protects. Threats are illegal. Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal.

webmaven 8y ago
> It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence [...] to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. First, though fascism is isn't particularly well-defined, it is definitely better defined than that (since you're describing a tactic rather than an ideology), and that just isn't what fascism means[0], second, even if it was, it would still be possible to advocate for it without crossing that line and leave facilitation to other (usually covert) channels. Still, although advocacy for fascist views would be legal, I have no particular problem with public platforms restricting speech that promotes those views[1]. The analogy elsewhere in this thread to the phone system is flawed, as that implies regulating private speech. OTOH, so long as money equals speech, there is an argument for creating payment infra that is more along the lines of a public utility or common-carrier for transactions that may not discriminate, since there are other categories of public speech besides fascism that are often unjustly denied access to payment infra. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
pjc50 8y ago
It may not be defined, but it can certainly be characterised. Umberto Eco has a good list: http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fascism.html http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fasci... Missing from that page is the preamble in which he describes growing up under Mussolini. > Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal. Speech that leads to or implies violence at slightly greater remove is, however. Circulating pictures of targets with people's faces on; calling for violence or that people should arm themselves against an outgroup; that kind of thing.
raarts 8y ago
Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment. Only in an environment where everybody was a-ok with opposing opinions being suppressed, which allowed fascists to suppress different opinions. Following this reasoning, GP's stance enables fascism.
- pjc50 8y ago
  > Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment Ah, why look at history when we can have hypothesis! I mean, you could have chosen some wrong or out of context examples of fascism to cite, but instead it's much easier to just pretend, right?
danmaz74 8y ago
Fascism didn't win by arguing alone, but arguing was a very important part of their strategy - please notice that the creator of fascism, Mussolini, became famous as a (vitriolic) journalist. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

webmaven 8y ago

> It isn't even a well-defined ideology! Fascism means using political violence [...] to seize power in something very much like a coup d'etat; it really is as simple as that. First, though fascism is isn't particularly well-defined, it is definitely better defined than that (since you're describing a tactic rather than an ideology), and that just isn't what fascism means[0], second, even if it was, it would still be possible to advocate for it without crossing that line and leave facilitation to other (usually covert) channels. Still, although advocacy for fascist views would be legal, I have no particular problem with public platforms restricting speech that promotes those views[1]. The analogy elsewhere in this thread to the phone system is flawed, as that implies regulating private speech. OTOH, so long as money equals speech, there is an argument for creating payment infra that is more along the lines of a public utility or common-carrier for transactions that may not discriminate, since there are other categories of public speech besides fascism that are often unjustly denied access to payment infra. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance

pjc50 8y ago

It may not be defined, but it can certainly be characterised. Umberto Eco has a good list: http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fascism.html http://interglacial.com/pub/text/Umberto_Eco_-_Eternal_Fasci... Missing from that page is the preamble in which he describes growing up under Mussolini. > Purported "speech" that poses a clear and present danger is illegal. Speech that leads to or implies violence at slightly greater remove is, however. Circulating pictures of targets with people's faces on; calling for violence or that people should arm themselves against an outgroup; that kind of thing.

raarts 8y ago

Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment. Only in an environment where everybody was a-ok with opposing opinions being suppressed, which allowed fascists to suppress different opinions. Following this reasoning, GP's stance enables fascism.

pjc50 8y ago
> Bold hypothesis: fascism has never won in a free-speech environment Ah, why look at history when we can have hypothesis! I mean, you could have chosen some wrong or out of context examples of fascism to cite, but instead it's much easier to just pretend, right?

danmaz74 8y ago

Fascism didn't win by arguing alone, but arguing was a very important part of their strategy - please notice that the creator of fascism, Mussolini, became famous as a (vitriolic) journalist. Also see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance