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> Anything less than ‘real programming’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. I am a very strong supporter of feminism, but this kind of reasoning n

by kace91 8y ago

> Anything less than ‘real programming’ is now considered trivial, silly, artsy, female. I am a very strong supporter of feminism, but this kind of reasoning needs to stop. The idea of "as a man you're biased from your position of power, therefore your opinion is invalid/worthless" means that the opinion of any men can be shut off automatically just by finding a gender twist on any debate. It's incredibly condescending, and frustrating, since any rebuttal you might try will be dismissed as your inability to see the other side, no matter how tenuous the connection to gender is. I would even go as far as to say that it's a mirror of the old "these are men things, as a woman you wouldn't understand" that was sadly common in the past. While I'm very happy to see women empowered and their perspective being taken into account more and more, I'm also worried about the rise of any system that leads to the opinion of a group not being listened to. That is never good, period. And to be clear, I'm not equating the current trend of dismissing male ideas to the suffering of women under patriarchic societies. Just pointing out a worrying development.

jayko 8y ago
What suffering? Did they fight in the front-line or plough fields old day long? The handful of males at the top didn't make ALL men not suffer, neither did make ALL women suffer. Royalty women had better lives than the 99% of men throughout history. That's revisionist history at it's finest and the same BS reasoning the writer of this blogpost has.
- kace91 8y ago
  Well, feminism is about freeing people from gender based discrimination, so it also includes freeing men from those societal expectations (like being the only ones to be conscripted / go to war). But at least in the specific issue addressed in my message (someone's opinions and talent being ignored due to their gender) I think it's hard to argue that women have historically gotten the short end of the stick.
  - jayko 8y ago
    Feminism is about women's rights. Whenever men rights groups(or egalitarian groups for the matter) fight for men's rights - like increased domestic abuse shelters, parental rights, custody rights etc. - they find feminists lobbying in the opposition. I agree that women have historically gotten the shorter end of the stick in this area. But that's hardly classified under suffering - especially in an era where the barrier of entry for women in everything they feel marginalised in has been lowered artificially to accommodate them.
  - yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
    Feminism means many different things to many different people. The reductionist statement made is usually "Feminism is just about equality" — a claim quickly invalidated when you consider the Swedish Feminist Initiative political party had as official policy in 2014 that men and women will earn the same money for the same work, but men must now pay more income tax than women to address historical imbalances.
    - kace91 8y ago
      Well, my answer would be that such a measure would not be feminist - it can't even be classified as positive discrimination since gender, unlike race, is not hereditary. I guess you could chalk that to a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but I'm fairly certain that the majority of people who self identify as feminist would not support such a measure - I have no numbers to support that claim, as I wasn't even aware of that party's existence.
krapp 8y ago
There is a bias against the value of design in FOSS, the dismissive attitude described does exist, but I don't think that bias is gender based. The argument draws from outdated principles about gender division where "female" = "artistic/emotional/right-brain" and "male" = "scientific/rational/left-brain", concluding that HTML and CSS being "layout" makes them "design" and therefore more "feminine." But HTML and CSS aren't art, nor is layout a "creative" activity. HTML and CSS are configuration. They're no more feminine than JSON or a Lua table. I don't think there's ever been a time where, even if the gender bias described existed, it was ever applied in the way described.
- kace91 8y ago
  Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Graphic designers tend to be pretty well respected, even though they are also very underrepresented and needed in the FOSS community. People that mainly work with HTML and CSS are less valued because they're seen as mere "transcribers" of the design made elsewhere, or at least that's my perception.
  - someone7x 8y ago
    Reminds me of the "You're just a tracer!" scene from Chasing Amy.
javajosh 8y ago
>I am a very strong supporter of feminism, but this kind of reasoning needs to stop. Yes, and insofar as feminists continue to use this reasoning, we should reduce our support. It may seem like a sad case of a few bad actors poisoning the well, but the lack of outcry by other feminists implies, to me, that the movement has gone rotten, no matter how I wish it weren't so. If you keep poking your allies in the eye, you can't expect them to remain allies for long!

by kace91 8y ago

jayko 8y ago

What suffering? Did they fight in the front-line or plough fields old day long? The handful of males at the top didn't make ALL men not suffer, neither did make ALL women suffer. Royalty women had better lives than the 99% of men throughout history. That's revisionist history at it's finest and the same BS reasoning the writer of this blogpost has.

kace91 8y ago
Well, feminism is about freeing people from gender based discrimination, so it also includes freeing men from those societal expectations (like being the only ones to be conscripted / go to war). But at least in the specific issue addressed in my message (someone's opinions and talent being ignored due to their gender) I think it's hard to argue that women have historically gotten the short end of the stick.
- jayko 8y ago
  Feminism is about women's rights. Whenever men rights groups(or egalitarian groups for the matter) fight for men's rights - like increased domestic abuse shelters, parental rights, custody rights etc. - they find feminists lobbying in the opposition. I agree that women have historically gotten the shorter end of the stick in this area. But that's hardly classified under suffering - especially in an era where the barrier of entry for women in everything they feel marginalised in has been lowered artificially to accommodate them.
- yakshaving_jgt 8y ago
  Feminism means many different things to many different people. The reductionist statement made is usually "Feminism is just about equality" — a claim quickly invalidated when you consider the Swedish Feminist Initiative political party had as official policy in 2014 that men and women will earn the same money for the same work, but men must now pay more income tax than women to address historical imbalances.
  - kace91 8y ago
    Well, my answer would be that such a measure would not be feminist - it can't even be classified as positive discrimination since gender, unlike race, is not hereditary. I guess you could chalk that to a "no true Scotsman" fallacy, but I'm fairly certain that the majority of people who self identify as feminist would not support such a measure - I have no numbers to support that claim, as I wasn't even aware of that party's existence.

krapp 8y ago

There is a bias against the value of design in FOSS, the dismissive attitude described does exist, but I don't think that bias is gender based. The argument draws from outdated principles about gender division where "female" = "artistic/emotional/right-brain" and "male" = "scientific/rational/left-brain", concluding that HTML and CSS being "layout" makes them "design" and therefore more "feminine." But HTML and CSS aren't art, nor is layout a "creative" activity. HTML and CSS are configuration. They're no more feminine than JSON or a Lua table. I don't think there's ever been a time where, even if the gender bias described existed, it was ever applied in the way described.

kace91 8y ago
Yes, I absolutely agree with that. Graphic designers tend to be pretty well respected, even though they are also very underrepresented and needed in the FOSS community. People that mainly work with HTML and CSS are less valued because they're seen as mere "transcribers" of the design made elsewhere, or at least that's my perception.
- someone7x 8y ago
  Reminds me of the "You're just a tracer!" scene from Chasing Amy.

javajosh 8y ago

>I am a very strong supporter of feminism, but this kind of reasoning needs to stop. Yes, and insofar as feminists continue to use this reasoning, we should reduce our support. It may seem like a sad case of a few bad actors poisoning the well, but the lack of outcry by other feminists implies, to me, that the movement has gone rotten, no matter how I wish it weren't so. If you keep poking your allies in the eye, you can't expect them to remain allies for long!