5 ms·

It's possible to imitate their trade policy without copying their lack of civil rights.

hkt 8y ago
The main proponents of doing this are a guy who bought a water cannon to use on protestors in London, a man so Catholic he'd vote down abortion, and a bunch of people who are mostly OK with letting people who are fleeing war drown in the Mediterranean. I do not hold out much hope.
- nbevans 8y ago
  They use water cannon in the rest of Europe, and even tear gas. What's the problem? They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 - and that is why they purchased some. Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. He will be praying they aren't ever needed.
  - pjc50 8y ago
    Background on this, a fairly reasonable summary from the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171 Theresa May believed that escalating to water cannon with their potential risks would further damage relations between the police and the public in mainland Britain.
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    The government specifically chose not to authorise their use. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-statement-on-water-cannon https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-...
    - nailer 8y ago
      Theresa May, a political opponent of Boris Johnson, specifically chose not to authorise their use after they had been purchased, as an attack on Johnson.
      - deleted 8y ago
        [deleted]
      - hkt 8y ago
        Or maybe she has a shred of decency?
  - toyg 8y ago
    As a foreigner, the UK police is widely admired for their restraint. Tactics like kettling, for all their drawbacks, are absolutely preferable to the alternatives seen elsewhere in Europe. It’s one of those things, like the lack of ID cards and centuries-long administrative continuity, that really set the UK apart from most other places and made it a beacon of pragmatic liberalism. Wish for “normalization” at your peril.
    - hkt 8y ago
      Yes, people don't seem to realise that we have a policing model that is probably among the best in the world. Better to kettle people occasionally than blind them with watercannon and tear gas - or as the Americans seem to prefer, shoot them in the back while they run away.
      - dang 8y ago
        We ban accounts that use HN for nationalistic flamewar, so could you please not post like this again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - hkt 8y ago
    In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Some other countries could learn by our example. The reason he "selfishly" sold them, by the way, was because they were in poor condition, cost more to keep than to sell, and were actually illegal to use. It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.
    - nbevans 8y ago
      Is the condescension really needed?
    - nailer 8y ago
      > In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Are we interested in letting our own people be attacked? If people can loot and burn without repercussion, do you think they'll be overly concerned with bashing you or your loved ones to steal your phone? How close was your home to the riots? > It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging. This was unnecessarily personal and essentially meaningless - the other poster could say the same thing about you.
      - pjc50 8y ago
        Ultimately there were serious repercussions: thousands of people were arrested and jailed. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-defendants-court-sentencing https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-d... (The policing by consent issue is very real, though. Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night but has long consequences.)
        nailer 8y ago
        > Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night You are assuming meeting riots in any way is escalating them. The riots escalated precisely because they were not met with a response. (as a side note, although I'm not disputing anything specific in the link, The Guardian is not an objective source for riot related information - The Guardian was found to have misled the public and forced to apologise by the PCC for the misleading 'Unarmed' Duggan headline)
  - twic 8y ago
    > They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 What? The whole deal with the riots [1] is that they were like flashmobs, they'd pop up at random. Unless you have a water cannon on every street corner, they'd spend all their time chasing round after the villains. > Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. That is a truly bizarre - and, let's be honest, entirely partisan - way to lay the blame. [1] lootings really
- nailer 8y ago
  > The main proponents of doing this are a guy who bought a water cannon to use on protesters in London Boris Johnson purchased a cannon to use on rioters - the vast majority of which had no concern about the police killing the armed drug dealer in question. Water cannons are effective for use in riots, as we've seen recently in Paris. My main concern is Sadiq Kahn who sold them, leaving us again vulnerable in a repeat incident. > a bunch of people who are mostly OK with letting people who are fleeing war drown in the Mediterranean Who is that? The vast majority of people entering the UK without visas do so via Calais, and the vast majority of those are economic migrants.
  - EliRivers 8y ago
    Given that Theresa May specifically did not give permission to use them, what would you rather Khan did with them? Given that they can't be deployed against rioters. I understand they required work to be done on them anyway, and would have incurred ongoing maintenance and storage costs; spending more money on weapons that specifically cannot be used seems like a poor choice. Or were you hoping that Khan would ask again and be told that he could use them after all?
    - nailer 8y ago
      I'd rather May gave permission to use them. Kahn should have kept them regardless and assumed authorisation would come when the next major event occurs - rather than praying it doesn't.
paleogizmo 8y ago
Singapore does have many positives (ease of forming a business, low crime, low corruption, a cost-effective single-payer healthcare system, good urban planning, taxing car ownership as an externality). I don't see how these go hand-in-hand with authoritarian government.

hkt 8y ago

The main proponents of doing this are a guy who bought a water cannon to use on protestors in London, a man so Catholic he'd vote down abortion, and a bunch of people who are mostly OK with letting people who are fleeing war drown in the Mediterranean. I do not hold out much hope.

nbevans 8y ago
They use water cannon in the rest of Europe, and even tear gas. What's the problem? They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 - and that is why they purchased some. Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. He will be praying they aren't ever needed.
- pjc50 8y ago
  Background on this, a fairly reasonable summary from the BBC: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33538171 Theresa May believed that escalating to water cannon with their potential risks would further damage relations between the police and the public in mainland Britain.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  The government specifically chose not to authorise their use. https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-statement-on-water-cannon https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/home-secretarys-oral-...
  - nailer 8y ago
    Theresa May, a political opponent of Boris Johnson, specifically chose not to authorise their use after they had been purchased, as an attack on Johnson.
    - deleted 8y ago
      [deleted]
    - hkt 8y ago
      Or maybe she has a shred of decency?
- toyg 8y ago
  As a foreigner, the UK police is widely admired for their restraint. Tactics like kettling, for all their drawbacks, are absolutely preferable to the alternatives seen elsewhere in Europe. It’s one of those things, like the lack of ID cards and centuries-long administrative continuity, that really set the UK apart from most other places and made it a beacon of pragmatic liberalism. Wish for “normalization” at your peril.
  - hkt 8y ago
    Yes, people don't seem to realise that we have a policing model that is probably among the best in the world. Better to kettle people occasionally than blind them with watercannon and tear gas - or as the Americans seem to prefer, shoot them in the back while they run away.
    - dang 8y ago
      We ban accounts that use HN for nationalistic flamewar, so could you please not post like this again? https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- hkt 8y ago
  In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Some other countries could learn by our example. The reason he "selfishly" sold them, by the way, was because they were in poor condition, cost more to keep than to sell, and were actually illegal to use. It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging.
  - nbevans 8y ago
    Is the condescension really needed?
  - nailer 8y ago
    > In the UK we do policing by consent. We aren't interested in attacking our own people. Are we interested in letting our own people be attacked? If people can loot and burn without repercussion, do you think they'll be overly concerned with bashing you or your loved ones to steal your phone? How close was your home to the riots? > It is clear to me where you get your news from, based on what you say. It is not encouraging. This was unnecessarily personal and essentially meaningless - the other poster could say the same thing about you.
    - pjc50 8y ago
      Ultimately there were serious repercussions: thousands of people were arrested and jailed. https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-defendants-court-sentencing https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2012/jul/04/riot-d... (The policing by consent issue is very real, though. Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night but has long consequences.)
      - nailer 8y ago
        > Meeting riots with escalation sounds good on the night You are assuming meeting riots in any way is escalating them. The riots escalated precisely because they were not met with a response. (as a side note, although I'm not disputing anything specific in the link, The Guardian is not an objective source for riot related information - The Guardian was found to have misled the public and forced to apologise by the PCC for the misleading 'Unarmed' Duggan headline)
- twic 8y ago
  > They should have had a water cannon for the London Riots in 2012 What? The whole deal with the riots [1] is that they were like flashmobs, they'd pop up at random. Unless you have a water cannon on every street corner, they'd spend all their time chasing round after the villains. > Which the current mayor has selfishly used for political points by selling them off for barely 10k. That is a truly bizarre - and, let's be honest, entirely partisan - way to lay the blame. [1] lootings really
nailer 8y ago
> The main proponents of doing this are a guy who bought a water cannon to use on protesters in London Boris Johnson purchased a cannon to use on rioters - the vast majority of which had no concern about the police killing the armed drug dealer in question. Water cannons are effective for use in riots, as we've seen recently in Paris. My main concern is Sadiq Kahn who sold them, leaving us again vulnerable in a repeat incident. > a bunch of people who are mostly OK with letting people who are fleeing war drown in the Mediterranean Who is that? The vast majority of people entering the UK without visas do so via Calais, and the vast majority of those are economic migrants.
- EliRivers 8y ago
  Given that Theresa May specifically did not give permission to use them, what would you rather Khan did with them? Given that they can't be deployed against rioters. I understand they required work to be done on them anyway, and would have incurred ongoing maintenance and storage costs; spending more money on weapons that specifically cannot be used seems like a poor choice. Or were you hoping that Khan would ask again and be told that he could use them after all?
  - nailer 8y ago
    I'd rather May gave permission to use them. Kahn should have kept them regardless and assumed authorisation would come when the next major event occurs - rather than praying it doesn't.

paleogizmo 8y ago

Singapore does have many positives (ease of forming a business, low crime, low corruption, a cost-effective single-payer healthcare system, good urban planning, taxing car ownership as an externality). I don't see how these go hand-in-hand with authoritarian government.