4 ms·

Yeah, but framing this as an issue in the gaming industry is disingenuous. A lack of unionization is a problem in programming in general, not just video games.

by cheeze 8y ago

chongli 8y ago
Yes that's true, although sometimes it seems like game programmers are exploited due to their passion for video games.
- EpicEng 8y ago
  There's definitely exploitation, but it's also market forces at play. When you have a never ending stream of devs who can't wait to work for you, well, you don't have to pay as much.
  - eterm 8y ago
    There's a never ending stream of aspiring actors and writers too. Forming a union has offered them some protection from being exploited by studios and perhaps game developers should do the same.
    - zozbot123 8y ago
      > Forming a union has offered them some protection from being exploited by studios If the Weinstein scandal is any indication, no it hasn't. Unions are not without their problems, while more widespread awareness about the actual working conditions in any given industry (be it acting or game development) is highly effective, one way or the other. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
    - EpicEng 8y ago
      And most of them aren't getting jobs. Software development and acting are barely comparable professions. The average programmer is far better off than the average actor, even with their Union
      - pcwalton 8y ago
        Electricians earn more than janitors do. But the existence of service workers' unions doesn't make the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers any less legitimate.
      - ABCLAW 8y ago
        Actors and Actresses don't face issues getting roles on the basis that they've been priced out of the market. Issues in getting jobs have to do with the limited supply of capitalized projects, high project transactional costs (including fairly high financial, equipment and professional costs), restrictions upon actor country of origin on the basis of bilateral entertainment tax treaties and a number of other structural issues. All of these issues mean that there's a substantial amount of activation energy required to get an entertainment product off the ground, which limits the amount of product projects in motion at any given time. Feel free to look up the various guild pay grades. The minimums are very low, and they're designed to prevent the 'be in this motion picture for free for exposure' race to the bottom, not to price small projects out of the market.
    - shanghaiaway 8y ago
      Top writers don't negotiate through unions, they have agents.
watwut 8y ago
Programmers in general are treated waaay better then game programmers. Specifically, programmer can have 40 hours week, bigger salary then game programmer and (subjectively) reasonably interesting work "at a same time". It takes some fighting and searching to get all three, the last seeming most hard. But it is possible and not really hard.
cageface 8y ago
I am not at all opposed to unions in principle but I'm not sure unionizing would be good for us. For skilled, high-demand labor like coding there are a lot of downsides to unions. Corruption, bureaucracy, union fees, increased regulation etc.

Yeah, but framing this as an issue in the gaming industry is disingenuous. A lack of unionization is a problem in programming in general, not just video games.

by cheeze 8y ago

Yeah, but framing this as an issue in the gaming industry is disingenuous. A lack of unionization is a problem in programming in general, not just video games.

chongli 8y ago

Yes that's true, although sometimes it seems like game programmers are exploited due to their passion for video games.

EpicEng 8y ago
There's definitely exploitation, but it's also market forces at play. When you have a never ending stream of devs who can't wait to work for you, well, you don't have to pay as much.
- eterm 8y ago
  There's a never ending stream of aspiring actors and writers too. Forming a union has offered them some protection from being exploited by studios and perhaps game developers should do the same.
  - zozbot123 8y ago
    > Forming a union has offered them some protection from being exploited by studios If the Weinstein scandal is any indication, no it hasn't. Unions are not without their problems, while more widespread awareness about the actual working conditions in any given industry (be it acting or game development) is highly effective, one way or the other. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.
  - EpicEng 8y ago
    And most of them aren't getting jobs. Software development and acting are barely comparable professions. The average programmer is far better off than the average actor, even with their Union
    - pcwalton 8y ago
      Electricians earn more than janitors do. But the existence of service workers' unions doesn't make the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers any less legitimate.
    - ABCLAW 8y ago
      Actors and Actresses don't face issues getting roles on the basis that they've been priced out of the market. Issues in getting jobs have to do with the limited supply of capitalized projects, high project transactional costs (including fairly high financial, equipment and professional costs), restrictions upon actor country of origin on the basis of bilateral entertainment tax treaties and a number of other structural issues. All of these issues mean that there's a substantial amount of activation energy required to get an entertainment product off the ground, which limits the amount of product projects in motion at any given time. Feel free to look up the various guild pay grades. The minimums are very low, and they're designed to prevent the 'be in this motion picture for free for exposure' race to the bottom, not to price small projects out of the market.
  - shanghaiaway 8y ago
    Top writers don't negotiate through unions, they have agents.

watwut 8y ago

Programmers in general are treated waaay better then game programmers. Specifically, programmer can have 40 hours week, bigger salary then game programmer and (subjectively) reasonably interesting work "at a same time". It takes some fighting and searching to get all three, the last seeming most hard. But it is possible and not really hard.

cageface 8y ago

I am not at all opposed to unions in principle but I'm not sure unionizing would be good for us. For skilled, high-demand labor like coding there are a lot of downsides to unions. Corruption, bureaucracy, union fees, increased regulation etc.